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  #1  
Old 02-13-2006, 02:09 PM
Amethyst Amethyst is offline
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Why is vaginal penetration the only definition of sex for some people

So a friend and I are discussing a topic which I'm sure was discussed here back in the days of Bill and Monica ... but why do some people consider vaginal penetration to be the only definition of sex? And I'm not talking dictionary definition but more ethically.

Why do some people only consider it to be cheating if vaginal penetration occurs? If two people are in bed, naked together, experiencing orgasms etc without vaginal penetration, isn't it still cheating (if one or the other of them is married to someone else)? (I guess this belief is the same reason that has lead to the purported increase in oral sex and anal sex among girls who make vows to remain virgins ... sure they are technically virgins, but they seem sexually active to me.)
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  #2  
Old 02-13-2006, 02:12 PM
treis treis is offline
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Its the only act that results in babies?
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  #3  
Old 02-13-2006, 02:21 PM
eleanorigby eleanorigby is offline
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I think it's up there with the folks who believe that French fries off someone else's plate don't have calories.

That said, I was raised with this belief (re sex, not calories). Not that oral etc wasn't cheating (heck, looking with the idea of finding is cheating in my book), but that intercourse was penetration. Sex=intercourse for me; any other sex is qualified by the adjective in front of it, oral, anal, car, phone, cyber or mutual __________(fill in the blank).
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  #4  
Old 02-13-2006, 02:49 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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I was actually about to post an IMHO thread on this.

I was going to ask: If someone asks you if you had sex with someone, what acts would constitute a 'yes'?

People keep saying that other things should constitute sex, but when it comes down to it, if John asks Bob if he had sex with Cindy, and Bob and Cindy just got each other off with no penetration, should/would he say yes? And what did John mean?

In spite of protestations to the contrary, I think when most of us ask about sex, we only mean vaginal penetration.
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  #5  
Old 02-13-2006, 02:49 PM
Annie-Xmas Annie-Xmas is offline
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Not so much "definition" as "defense."--"We didn't have sex blegal ecause the privates didn't come in contact." At one time, penetration was the only definition of "rape," a crime that has since been changed to "sexual assault."
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  #6  
Old 02-13-2006, 02:53 PM
bup bup is offline
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I agree with Annie. Of course other stuff is sex, until you do it and need to justify it to yourself or others.
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  #7  
Old 02-13-2006, 03:01 PM
Push You Down Push You Down is offline
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Some ladies don't count it (oral or mutual masturbation) because it means their total number of sex partners number goes WAAAAAAAY up.

I've heard from that from three different girls.
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  #8  
Old 02-13-2006, 03:07 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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Obligatory Clerks Reference:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clerks
DANTE
(panicky)
But...but you said you only had sex
with three guys! You never mentioned
him!

VERONICA
That's because I never had sex with
him!

DANTE
You sucked his dick!

VERONICA
We went out a few times. We didn't
have sex, but we fooled around.

DANTE
(massive panic attack)
Oh my God! Why did you tell me you
only slept with three guys?

VERONICA
Because I did only sleep with three
guys! That doesn't mean I didn't
just go with people.
Followed by:

Quote:
(to CUSTOMER)
My girlfriend sucked thirty-seven
dicks!

CUSTOMER
In a row?
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  #9  
Old 02-13-2006, 03:21 PM
Indygrrl Indygrrl is offline
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Cheating---if he kisses someone else I'd consider that cheating

Sex--I personally don't count it as sex unless penetration has occurred. It's just a satisfaction thing for me. Manual or oral orgasm doesn't equal the satisfaction I get from sex.
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  #10  
Old 02-13-2006, 04:01 PM
treis treis is offline
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Ok, I have no idea how I managed to pull a triple post an hour and a half apart.
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2006, 05:57 PM
Antigen Antigen is offline
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In my book, if you're playing with genitals, it's sex. Different kinds of sex, different kinds of virginity, but doing any of it with someone else while you're seeing someone is still cheating.

I think some people use the "it wasn't real sex" justification when they're in trouble, or when they don't want to look slutty.
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2006, 06:02 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigen
In my book, if you're playing with genitals, it's sex. Different kinds of sex, different kinds of virginity, but doing any of it with someone else while you're seeing someone is still cheating.

I think some people use the "it wasn't real sex" justification when they're in trouble, or when they don't want to look slutty.
But if someone asked "Did you have sex with them?" in that case, would you say yes?
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  #13  
Old 02-13-2006, 06:11 PM
DiosaBellissima DiosaBellissima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGabe
But if someone asked "Did you have sex with them?" in that case, would you say yes?
If there wasn't penetration, I would reply (assuming this is someone I am pretty close with- I wouldn't blab this to a stranger): "We didn't fuck, but we did XYZ." Or "Yup, he banged me like a Salvation Army drum" or something.

I have a friend who claims that everything except vaginal isn't sex. Meaning that oral, anal, hands, and booby-lovin' is not counted under "sex"- heck, she doesn't even count these as "sexual relations" or "sexual acts". Seriously. What does she label them as? Making out, of course.

In her case, I think she is just trying to justify her sluttiness. I know many girls that don't want to be labled as whores, so they actually, vaginally fuck a low number, but let the entire neighborhood titty fuck them. It's not slutty- afterall, it's just making out!
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  #14  
Old 02-13-2006, 06:15 PM
The Great Sun Jester The Great Sun Jester is offline
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"Did you have sex." can be answered "no" innocently enough even as you recall getting under someone's bra for a 15 minute romp in the broom closet.

The question's too narrow. Sure, the intent of the question is known, but 'that's not what you asked.' Might as well ask, "Did you eat hog's eyes at lunch?" Sex is sex. If you're interested in a more broad spectrum of behavior, ask about that.
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  #15  
Old 02-13-2006, 06:15 PM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Well to the grand majority of the populace to grand majority of the last couple of centuries I think it would go that:

Vagina = Sex
Mouth = Felatio (which looks mispelled...?)
Hiney = Buggering

As to why it should be okay to do one and not another.... I believe that the loophole probably existed even before the first law was ever chiseled into stone. AKA, people lie to themselves, and enjoy it immensely.
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  #16  
Old 02-13-2006, 06:15 PM
DiosaBellissima DiosaBellissima is offline
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The drum remark was IF we had actually had vaginal sex. Preview is my friend.
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  #17  
Old 02-13-2006, 08:41 PM
Khan Khan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amethyst
Why do some people only consider it to be cheating if vaginal penetration occurs? If two people are in bed, naked together, experiencing orgasms etc without vaginal penetration, isn't it still cheating (if one or the other of them is married to someone else)?
Who the hell believes THAT?!

Count me in with Indygrrl and eleanorigby. Romantic overtures towards anyone other than your partner is cheating, even if there isn't any physical affection. I tense up even at the idea of flirting. Admittedly, though, my threshold is set pretty low in light of recent experience.

In fact, I'm gonna go start a thread on the subject. I'm real damned curious as to how anyone can see physical displays of romance as anything BUT cheating and not be in denial.

As for what constitutes sex, I would say that the various forms of diddling constitute intimate sexual behavior and are distinct from "going all the way." In terms of morality and *ahem* accounting purposes that distinction still stands. But discounting blow jobs or cunnilingus as being in some sort of "gray area" is akin to saying that charcoal is the same as light gray by virtue of neither being black nor white.

Alternatively, one could say that an analogous situation would be fighting in terms of a couple arguing versus fighting in terms of two drunks slugging it out. They're both forms of conflict, but still different.
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  #18  
Old 02-13-2006, 08:48 PM
Antigen Antigen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGabe
But if someone asked "Did you have sex with them?" in that case, would you say yes?
I think I'd probably be more specific if I had to answer - I'd say it wasn't sex, but close. Because, really, it's the same sort of act with the same sort of intimacy.
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  #19  
Old 02-13-2006, 08:49 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan
Count me in with Indygrrl and eleanorigby. Romantic overtures towards anyone other than your partner is cheating, even if there isn't any physical affection. I tense up even at the idea of flirting. Admittedly, though, my threshold is set pretty low in light of recent experience.

In fact, I'm gonna go start a thread on the subject. I'm real damned curious as to how anyone can see physical displays of romance as anything BUT cheating and not be in denial.
Just to make sure, you still believe that any physical contact with no romance is still cheating right? I'm sure the answer is left, but your choice of words made for some wiggle room.
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  #20  
Old 02-13-2006, 08:50 PM
cerberus cerberus is offline
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Historically, the Virgin Test, as applied to females, invovled the inspection of the hymen, which, it was assumed, was only broken by penetrative intercourse.

Pragmatically, the reason for defining "actual sex" as being only penetrative sex is to enable the other stuff to be viewed lightly, as in "just fooling around."

STD-wise, any mutual involvement of genitalia and mucus membranes represents significant risk for many STDs. From a disease standpoint, any of it can lead to disease.
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  #21  
Old 02-13-2006, 08:51 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGabe
I'm sure the answer is left
I'm sure the answer is yes
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  #22  
Old 02-13-2006, 08:55 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus
From a disease standpoint, any of it can lead to disease.
Such as dancing!
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  #23  
Old 02-13-2006, 09:14 PM
Khan Khan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGabe
Just to make sure, you still believe that any physical contact with no romance is still cheating right? I'm sure the answer is left, but your choice of words made for some wiggle room.
Sorry, I was pretty vague. The question in the second part of the OP struck a nerve.

Any form of romantic interaction with someone that is not your partner is cheating, especially if it involves physical contact. When it is not physical, it's harder to define because in that case you have to take intentions into account. Personally, even flirting upsets me because of my recent experience.

And in order to avoid hijacking this thread, I'm going to start my own about that experience.
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  #24  
Old 02-13-2006, 10:02 PM
urban1a urban1a is offline
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If someone cums it's sex.

Bob
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  #25  
Old 02-13-2006, 10:06 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalGabe
Obligatory Clerks Reference:
At the height of the Lewinsky scandal, I was trying to watch TV and all I could find on just about every channel was discussions of wether or not Clinton lied when he said they never had sex. Finally, I got fed up with the whole damned thing, grabbed a videotape out of my collection at random, and jammed it in the VCR. The tape was Clerks, and the last time I'd watched it, for whatever reason I'd stopped the tape about thirty seconds before that scene.

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  #26  
Old 02-13-2006, 10:07 PM
CynicalGabe CynicalGabe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urban1z
If someone cums it's sex.

Bob
What if there is penetration, but no climax?
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  #27  
Old 02-13-2006, 10:31 PM
DianaG DianaG is offline
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Then it's bad sex, and it's okay to leave it off your resume.
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  #28  
Old 02-14-2006, 12:52 AM
Least Original User Name Ever Least Original User Name Ever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treis
Ok, I have no idea how I managed to pull a triple post an hour and a half apart.

wow, i've had the triple posts before..but that's rather impressive..

keep up the faith, brother
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  #29  
Old 02-14-2006, 12:54 AM
Least Original User Name Ever Least Original User Name Ever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima
If there wasn't penetration, I would reply (assuming this is someone I am pretty close with- I wouldn't blab this to a stranger): "We didn't fuck, but we did XYZ." Or "Yup, he banged me like a Salvation Army drum" or something.

I have a friend who claims that everything except vaginal isn't sex. Meaning that oral, anal, hands, and booby-lovin' is not counted under "sex"- heck, she doesn't even count these as "sexual relations" or "sexual acts". Seriously. What does she label them as? Making out, of course.

In her case, I think she is just trying to justify her sluttiness. I know many girls that don't want to be labled as whores, so they actually, vaginally fuck a low number, but let the entire neighborhood titty fuck them. It's not slutty- afterall, it's just making out!


and um...in WHICH neighborhood do you live in again? *grabs pen and paper*
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  #30  
Old 02-14-2006, 01:09 AM
Feydeau Feydeau is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treis
Its the only act that results in babies?
If you do it as often as you do it in here, of course you'll get babies!


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  #31  
Old 02-14-2006, 01:52 AM
bup bup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urban1z
If someone cums it's sex.

Bob
Man, I think most of us have had sex alone... I've even had sex in my sleep!
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  #32  
Old 02-14-2006, 09:14 AM
irishgirl irishgirl is offline
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How can I put this?

Vaginal intercourse is the only "real" sex for me, because the quality of the connection (emotional and spiritual as well as physical) I can make with my partner is several magnitudes greater than from any other activity. Yes I can have orgasms and give my partner orgasms from any number of other activities, but nothing gives me the same level of connectedness with my partner and that sense of completeness.

Having said that, I'd consider anything more than mild flirting to be infidelity. Just because I don't put oral sex etc on the same level, doesn't mean that I find it any more acceptable for my partner to do those things with anyone else!
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  #33  
Old 02-14-2006, 10:35 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is online now
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Cheating — Nothing is "cheating" unless you violate a promise that you made and then keep silent about having done so. If you don't promise exclusivity, having sex with other people isn't cheating.

Answering the OP —It's obviously a plot to keep from having to acknowledge that lesbians have sex with each other! Seriously (or semi-seriously, at least): much of the activity that is discounted as "not really sex" between hetero folks would be found on the list of entree options on the lesbian menu. While I don't really think there's a conscious conspiracy ("Hmm, I know how we can discredit dyke-sex! Let's define sex in such a way that what they do doesn't count!"), isn't it interesting how the cultural attitude towards lesbian sex is that it's hot, and sexy, but somehow unimportant (if the same female also has sex with guys, or even more so is part of a menagé a trois, the stuff she does with another gal is perceived as part of the build-up or foreplay)?

For perspective, reverse the sexes. If Tom and Harry and Sally are sharing a romp in a big bed, and Tom and Harry have sex together and then they each do Sally, do we think of the boy-boy action as a prelude, or is Sally still kind of a garnish to a mostly gay male-bonding experience? And also: does it make a difference if the sex between Tom and Harry involves penetration? Does it make a difference what orifice gets penetrated?
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  #34  
Old 02-14-2006, 11:38 AM
Amethyst Amethyst is offline
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The friend with whom I have been having this discussion has recently had too much experience with the attitude that 'the only real intimacy is sex' or 'it's only cheating if you have intercourse'. I thought the best way to give my friend a wide perspective on this attitude was to ask the teeming masses. I think that that Antigen hit the nail on the head by saying it is just a way to justify behaviour.

I can relate to irishgirl in that I find vaginal intercourse as the 'best' kind of sex for me - I find the orgasm during intercourse to be the most complete/full/intimate as opposed to any orgasm from masturbation/oral sex. (Mr. Amethyst and I agree on this - the orgasm from masturbation/oral sex is perhaps more physically intense but not as intimate/complete). What I find most enjoyable notwithstanding, I personally believe that cheating includes more than just intercourse ... I would consider cheating to include a whole gamut of things including romantic kissing or flirting with intent/sexy flirting.
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  #35  
Old 02-14-2006, 05:14 PM
Cervaise Cervaise is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antigen
In my book, if you're playing with genitals, it's sex.
I guess I need to find a better bookstore; I've got a library of Barbies and Kens.
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  #36  
Old 02-14-2006, 06:35 PM
D_Odds D_Odds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima
If there wasn't penetration, I would reply (assuming this is someone I am pretty close with- I wouldn't blab this to a stranger): "We didn't fuck, but we did XYZ." Or "Yup, he banged me like a Salvation Army drum" or something.

I have a friend who claims that everything except vaginal isn't sex. Meaning that oral, anal, hands, and booby-lovin' is not counted under "sex"- heck, she doesn't even count these as "sexual relations" or "sexual acts". Seriously. What does she label them as? Making out, of course.

In her case, I think she is just trying to justify her sluttiness. I know many girls that don't want to be labled as whores, so they actually, vaginally fuck a low number, but let the entire neighborhood titty fuck them. It's not slutty- afterall, it's just making out!
I hung out with the wrong people
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