Discworld Reading Club #12: Witches Abroad [Spoilers]

There are no inconsistencies in the Discworld books; ocassionally, however, there are alternate pasts.
–Terry Pratchett, at alt-fan-pratchett
The books covered so far!

  1. The Colour of Magic
  2. The Light Fantastic
  3. Equal Rites
  4. Mort
  5. Sourcery
  6. Wyrd Sisters
  7. Pyramids
  8. Guards! Guards!
  9. [del]Faust[/del] Eric
  10. Moving Pictures
  11. Reaper Man
    To kick off the discussion:

This is one of Magrat’s last appearances as part of the ‘trio’; in Lords and Ladies, she becomes the Queen of Lancre and Agnes takes over her role soon after in Maskerade. Do you like her characterization here? Whom do you prefer, Agnes or Magrat?

What do you think of Lily Weatherwax, Granny’s sister, and how she came to be this way? Do you think it could have turned out differently?
Favourite quotes:

“Magrat was annoyed. She was also frightened, which made her even more annoyed. It was hard for people when Magrat was annoyed. It was like being attacked by damp tissue.”

" 'S called the Vieux River."
‘Yes?’
‘Know what that means?’
‘No.’
‘The Old (Masculine) River," said Nanny.’
‘Yes?’
‘Words have sex in foreign parts," said Nanny hopefully.’"

“You can’t go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it’s just a cage.”

Also the first appearance of human-shaped Greebo.

Oh, as well as the first appearance of Casanunda, World’s 2nd Greatest Lover!

Hmm…I may be wrong. DiskWiki says he appeared in Reaper Man, but I don’t remember the context.

He tries harder.

Not to mention Greebo’s encounter with the vampire, Granny’s dealings with the dwarves and the riverboat gamblers, and “I ain’t got time to bleed!” (so to speak) :smiley:

It took me forever to get the joke in Casanunda’s name. I mean, I knew it was from our world’s Casanova, but I didn’t see the joke in the Discworld version.

If I was making a Discworld movie, I’d involve travelling Witches, because it is a great way to introduce the ‘world’, the witches personalities, and it’s ripe for great jokes galore.

The Witches’ journey is padded out to take up a lot of book time with no actual plot advancement (except in the ‘meanwhiles’) but I forgive it that, because it is just utterly hilarious!

Agreed. The first half of the novel is mostly played for laughs (especially the “Wizard of Oz” spoof), which IMO makes the more sober second half a bit more jarring.

And to answer the question in the OP, it’s a close call, but I think I prefer “wet hen” Magrat. Maybe I haven’t really gotten “acquainted” with Agnes, but for me the witchly trio still remains Granny, Nanny, and Magrat.

…with one exception - the Little Red Riding Hood spoof had some real seriousness to it.

Oh, I’ve long since expanded it to a quartet (even a quintet with Perdita) in my mind, I love Agnes, but more on that in a later thread. Me, I prefer the post-baby Magrat, but I have a lot of sympathy for the wet hen.

jayjay, I think Casanunda’s mentioned as a great lover, but doesn’t actually appear in RM as such.

My favourite throwaway bit - the “It’sss my birthday…” Gollum cameo, Greebo at the ball, and the whole “transfer of the hurt to later” bit. I wasn’t so much enamoured of Mrs Gogol and that whole bit, though I realise it goes with Genua-as-New-Orleans.

Y’know, I could have sworn on a stack of bibles that Lords and Ladies was before Witches Abroad. Huh. Funny tricks the mind can play (prob. because I read them in that order).

Seemlessly segue into: mind tricks are big in this book. I really, really like the presentation of Granny Weatherwax’s powers here- not just her winning the poker game (which still makes me laugh every time I read it: “I thought I had rather a lot of the little pointy ones.”), but also when she uses Mrs. Gogol’s own magic against her. Plus, of course, the trick in the mirror.

I agree that I found the transition from humourousness to seriousnessnessness (It’s like bananananana, you just can’t stop spelling it) to be a little jarring. On the other hand, you could argue this is intentional: what has been a series of fantasy pastiches becomes, suddenly and viciously, an examination of the way that fantasy doesn’t work in the real world- with the fall of the headsman’s axe.

I find it interesting how the Witches novels are used to explore what might be called more “serious” issues-or as serious as you can get in the Discworld, anyway- much like the Watch novels, whereas Rincewind and Wizards (and most of the one-offs, like Reaper Man) are pretty much played straight for laughs. I would say that this is fundamentally because the two best characters that Pratchett has created (IMO) are Vimes and Weatherwax, and they are interesting for the same reason- because they both grapple with a darkness in their souls, an urge to pick up the axe/wield a little bit of magic because people are so stupid and they can make the world such a better place.

I find it interesting to contrast Lily and Granny, because this is essentially what Lily is- she is Granny’s dark side, her mirror, if you will. Lily is Granny without a moral centre, and she seems to be having so much fun. Note, also, how a lifetime of evil deeds has left Lily rich, powerful and beautiful, whereas a lifetime of good deeds has merely made Granny old. I think we can all sympathise a little with Lily’s ambition to “hold a mirror up to life, and cut of the parts that don’t fit.”

Why, I wonder, is Lily never mentioned after this book? Her place as a reminder of what could be is more or less taken by Black Aliss (also introduced in this book, IIRC), just as Vimes’ example is Old Stoneface. Admittedly, Lily is a little one-dimensional (“I’m bad Weatherwax and you’re bad Weatherwax, and you’re a little goody-two-shoes.”), but the familial link seems as though it deserves a subsequent mention, at least.

It might be more accurate to say that Lily was what Granny wanted to be, but couldn’t – because Lily got the job first. As Granny said to Lily:

“I’m goin’ to give you the hidin’ our Mam never gave you, Lily Weatherwax. Not with magic, not with headology, not with a stick like our Dad had, aye, and used a fair bit as I recall – but with skin. And not because you was the bad one. Not because you meddled with stories. Everyone has a path they got to tread. But because, and I wants you to understand this prop’ly, after you went I had to be the good one.”

Not that this invalidates the rest of your post, which I agree with – like Sam Vimes, Granny has a darkness that she constantly keeps struggling to hold back. Thud! could almost have been a Weatherwax novel…

Yes, I think we learn a lot about Granny in this particular book. Although it’s mentioned in previous books, it seems to be here that you realise just how dark she really is. Is it in this book, or in Carpe Jugulum that it’s said she’s always looking over her own shoulder, watching her own decisions?

Granny is an evil, wicked witch inside, with the potential to be one of the most powerful and infamous witches in the history of the Disc - but she stops herself from becoming that person. I’m thinking about this now, and I can’t clear up for myself why she makes that decision. Is it because Lily has already gone off to be bad? I wouldn’t have thought so - Granny could be twice as bad without even trying.

Well, it could be that Lily’s actions, combined with the strong quantities of narrativium presence in the Disc, literally FORCE Granny to be good if her sister was bad… but I think that she chose to be good because, deep inside, she has an innate sense of how the world really should be. She has a strong conscience, and when she fails to live up to it, she really does feel depressed and self-hating: look at how much she berates herself over her “stupid” mistakes in books like Carpe Jugulum and Maskerade.

I had once heard that Granny is not a Good Witch, nor is she a Bad Witch. She is a Right Witch, and does whatever is Right in a situation, which makes her more frightening than any other alignment cold possibly be.

(I also think her friendship with Nanny Ogg keeps her on an even keel. Nanny Og scares me a little, because she is not afraid of Granny. That makes me wonder just how powerful Glytha could be if she took time off from drinking, dancing, and suchlike…)

Happy Clam, I disagree that Reaper Man or really, any of the Death-involved (and later, Susan-involved) books after Mort, are played just for laughs. Both Reaper Man and Hogfather have deeper, often fairly dark, layers to them.

I believe Terry Pratchett mentioned in one of the Discworld art books (The Pratchett Portfolio?) that he feels Nanny is the real power of the witches triumvate, precisely because she’s there to keep Granny under control, as it were.

There’s also an allusion to this in “The Sea and Little Fishes,” where Nanny deliberately teased Granny Weatherwax over having an apple named after her [Nanny], so’s to give Esme something to stew and scheme over for a few days – and avoid getting dangerously restless in the process…

Nanny does something similar in Maskerade to give Granny the excuse to go to Ankh-Morpork and interfere.

Ah, yes. “The Joye of Snackes”…

I’m afraid this is the only Witches Book I’ve read, ever. I don’t like the Witches series and never went further with them. But this is the reading club, so I’ll just say I can’t stand the three witches. Magrat is probably the least annoying, but I’ve known people like both Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax and couldn’t stand them IRL either. So sorry…I’ll be back on the next Rincewind or Guards book. Or even Susan Sto Helit, don’t like her much, but the books about her are decent.