Some questions regarding Angel

[bouv]

Spoilers will be abound, so don't read the thread if you haven't finished the series yet.

OK, so I've seen most of Angel (I have seen 90% of the episodes in seasons 2-5, and almost none of season 1.) My questions concern the seasons I have seen.

First off, a gereral question: Did they ever really explain who (or what) Wolfram and Hart were? Yeah, I get that they are the Wolf, Ram, and Hart, and are some kind of powerful demons, but do we get anything beyond that? In season two, we learn that their power, at least at some point in the past, was also in the dimension of Pylea. In season five, Illyria tells us that in her days of glory, when demons as powerful, and probably more powerful, than her walked the Earth and made lots of carnage, the Wolf, Ram, and Hart were mere piddly-crap demons. Barely above vampires in the eyes of the big demons. So what's the deal? Do we ever learn how/why they got so powerful?

Next: In season 3, Angel frees a prisoner trapped in some dimension from a cage of fire. His guard is Skip, who later elevates Cordy to a kind of angel thingy at the end of season 3, and then we learn it was all part of a plan to bring about The Beast/Jasmine. So...why was he the guard? It didn't seem like guarding that guy/freeing him in any way affected the plan to being forth The Beast/Jasmine. Was he just there so that he could appear to Angel as a 'good guy'?

Also in season 3, Wesley goes to the Hamburger Demon to ask him about the prophecy that says the father will devour the son (ie, Angel will kill Conner.) The demon, who seems to have lots of knowledge (maybe all-knowing) says it WILL happen, and gives Wesley three signs (earthquake, fire, blood.) But...the prophecy was false. It was fake and created by the time-traveling guy (Shausin? Something like that) with the hope that it would somehow prevent Conner from killing him (as we see in season 5, it didn't work.) So if this Whopper Devil is all-knowing...why didn't he just tell Wesley it was all a lie? Was he on the whole scheme too? Or is Shausin's power so great he can not only make a prophecy, but make everyone think it will happen? (Or, my alternate theory, since Angel's blood that he drinks was spiked with Conner's blood, he, in a way, did devour his son, at least a part of him.)

That's all for now, but I might have more later.

[Push You Down]

Originally Posted by bouv

Also in season 3, Wesley goes to the Hamburger Demon to ask him about the prophecy that says the father will devour the son (ie, Angel will kill Conner.) The demon, who seems to have lots of knowledge (maybe all-knowing) says it WILL happen, and gives Wesley three signs (earthquake, fire, blood.) But...the prophecy was false. It was fake and created by the time-traveling guy (Shausin? Something like that) with the hope that it would somehow prevent Conner from killing him (as we see in season 5, it didn't work.) So if this Whopper Devil is all-knowing...why didn't he just tell Wesley it was all a lie? Was he on the whole scheme too? Or is Shausin's power so great he can not only make a prophecy, but make everyone think it will happen? (Or, my alternate theory, since Angel's blood that he drinks was spiked with Conner's blood, he, in a way, did devour his son, at least a part of him.)

That's all for now, but I might have more later.

I cannot help with the first two since I don't think #1 has an answer and #2 is from a time where I thought the show sucked outright.

#3 The answer seems obvious the Hamburger stand demon was NOT all-knowing. Maybe he thought he was.. I'm sure there are a lot of monsters and demons walking around that think that.
That's sort of the nature of Prophecy in the Buffy/Angel-verse. It's going to happen up until it doesn't. Y'know what I mean?

[The Mighty Loa]

Angel did "devour" the son. Twice, actually. First, he was drinking Connor's blood unknowingly. Lilah spiked his blood with Connor's. Prophecies are tricky things. Remember the prophecy of Connor's birth said he would never be "born" and there would no no birth in the alley, only death. Well, technically that was true. Darla staked herself and Connor never went through the birthing process.

Secondly, the fire, flood, and earthquake set off a chain of events that led to Connor's death at Angel's hands. Wesley was not going to kidnap the baby until those three things happened. And then....Angel slit Connor's throat as part of the W&H deal, effectively killing the Connor he knew to be replaced with an entirely different person.

Skip just worked for the powers--he had a short commute to the jail. It seemed that he was just Jasmine's lacky and did what he was told, and went where she wanted. Plus, they really liked the character and the make-up and wanted to use him again.

We were never told the history of the Senior Partners. All we know is that they're multi-dimensional, the "home office" is Earth, and they were here long before people. Oh yeah, and they keep the trains running on time.

[bouv]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Loa

We were never told the history of the Senior Partners. All we know is that they're multi-dimensional, the "home office" is Earth, and they were here long before people. Oh yeah, and they keep the trains running on time.

They control the department of transportation?! All is lost!

[DocCathode]

RE Skip

I always assumed he was working deep undercover. He spends millenia playing the part of a minion of the PTB. When he helps Cordelia ascend, none of the upper management of good notice anything strange due to Skip's long record with them.

Re the Hamburger Loa

That much I remember. Wes doesn't call up a demon. He calls up a loa. I forget the exact words of the conversation they had and expect they are rather important.

Re The Wolf, Ram And Hart

We also see one of the senior partners manifest and Angel kill it. Whether this was a minor inconvenience or a major setback is never mentioned.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by bouv

They control the department of transportation?! All is lost!

So, the DMV is actually run by demons who thrive on human suffering?

Is anybody really surprised?

[SkipMagic]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

That much I remember. Wes doesn't call up a demon. He calls up a loa. I forget the exact words of the conversation they had and expect they are rather important.

He says, "Mange sec Loa, alegba, accept this offering - and open the gates of truth."

But his best line throughout the exchange is, "You try chatting with a cranky hamburger."

And, yeah, as The Mighty Loa pointed out, the Loa assured Wesley: "That the vampire will devour his child is certain..." Sahjhan's manipulated prophecy was that Angel would kill his son.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by SkipMagic

And, yeah, as The Mighty Loa pointed out, the Loa assured Wesley: "That the vampire will devour his child is certain..." Sahjhan's manipulated prophecy was that Angel would kill his son.

OTTOMH, Legba-male, guardian of the crossroads, doors and travel.

Thanks for the quote. I've been figuring he never actually said "kill" and that Wes just assumed. But altering reality so that only you and whatsisface (red guy, old, "I've crapped better magics than that.") remember Connor's life fulfills "devour" pretty well.

This is why oracles should always be asked extremely detailed questions. Otherwise you get
Bob "On what day will I die?"
Oracle "On a tuesday."
Tom "Stupid Bob. You should have asked how long will I live?"
Oracle "You will live a 7 months more than Bob."

[cbawlmer]

I don't think they ever brought up the wolf, ram, and hart thing again. Maybe the presence of those books in Pylea was only meant to suggest the firm's presence in many/all dimensions, but I always thought there would be more of a payoff to that bit.

Random trivia: the actor who played Skip now plays Roy, Pam's fiance on The Office.

[Bridget Burke]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

OTTOMH, Legba-male, guardian of the crossroads, doors and travel.

The Loa can be pretty tricksy. Especially Papa Legba.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by Bridget Burke

The Loa can be pretty tricksy. Especially Papa Legba.

And it was a cranky hamburger, wes probably called up the Petro aspect.

Sometime I'll have to tell you how I survived an encounter with zobop practicioners through quick thinking, and the lucky fact that I was wearing a top hat and a pair of sunglasses over my prescription glasses.

[Contrapuntal]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Loa

AngelAnd then....Angel slit Connor's throat as part of the W&H deal, effectively killing the Connor he knew to be replaced with an entirely different person.

I assume this is meant to be metaphorical. I do not remember this.

[bouv]

Originally Posted by cbawlmer

Random trivia: the actor who played Skip now plays Roy, Pam's fiance on The Office.

Holy Hell, you're right!

[SkipMagic]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

I assume this is meant to be metaphorical. I do not remember this.

At the end of the Season 4 finale, "Home", Angel has stabbed Connor in the leg, tackled and pinned him to the floor. After Angel says that he really does love Connor, Connor asks him what Angel's going to do about it, and Angel says, "Prove it" before slashing at Connor's neck with the knife.

We never see the contact, and it's never said whether Connor has been "replaced". I believe The Mighty Loa (not the cranky hamburger) is wrong about the replacement. Maybe Angel really did slash Connor's neck, I dunno (it looked like it), but I think what transpired in Season 5 pretty much indicates that it was a spell that played with everyone's memories and helped make Connor a normal kid, not a Connor doppelganger.

[The Mighty Loa]

Angel literally slashed Connor's throat, metaphorically killing the old Connor so there could be a new one. I didn't mean to imply there was some sort of Connor doppleganger, just that the Connor we knew in S3/S4 died at Angel's hands, the way, in a sense, the Wes, Fred, Gunn, and Lorne we knew up to Home died.

I mean, he was the same guy born to two vampires, the same guy who was raised in a hell dimension by a crazy guy from the 18th century, the same guy who sunk Angel to the bottom of the ocean, but since he didn't remember any of that, he was, in effect, an entirely new person. Which is what Angel wanted, after all.

[DWMarch]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Loa

We were never told the history of the Senior Partners. All we know is that they're multi-dimensional, the "home office" is Earth, and they were here long before people. Oh yeah, and they keep the trains running on time.

Far be it from me to disagree with the Mighty Loa but the home office is not on Earth. That was just Holland's schtick to Angel to discourage him while Lindsay and crew worked a disenchanting spell on the ring. Remember Lindsay bitching Darla out when he finds her with the ring in the next episode? The best part is, Holland's distraction worked marvelously and Angel never even realizes it! There has to be some way of getting to the domain of the Senior Partners. Lilah went there and back, Eve and Hamilton came from there and Holland apparently runs the elevator. But after Holland's speech, Angel stops trying to attack them on their own ground, even after having several experiences travelling through dimensions (Pylea, Jasmine arc, the White Room, rescuing Lindsay). He gives up even after going into a dimension used by the Senior Partners as a prison (although I will grant that prisons are technically very easy to get into; getting back out is a different story). Angel could have made it all the way if he tried harder but he got too bogged down in Earthly distractions.

Regarding Connor's throat-slashing, he does say at the end of "Origin" that he doesn't like people touching his neck. And he said this to Angel after getting his memories back. It's not definitive but it suggests to me that Connor got his gizzard chopped in "Home."

As for the Senior Partner Angel killed, I have a feeling all he managed to do was kill the Kleynach demon. The SP itself probably just shot back to Hell when it's body was destroyed. Remember in "Home" when Wes tried to burn Lilah's contract? She opened the file cabinet and another was right there to replace it.

Did anyone notice how Nathan Reed (bald W&H guy with big glasses) just disappears? He doesn't get shot or fed to the fish or anything like that. He's just not there one day. Screwing up the 75 year review is bound to be bad for one's career though.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Contrapuntal

I assume this is meant to be metaphorical. I do not remember this.

No one but Angel remembers it. That's part of the spell.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

No one but Angel remembers it. That's part of the spell.

Angel remembers it, but Cordelia remembered pre-spell Connor as well. As did Bale (and possibly his subordinate wizards). And of course after Wesley broke the magic doodad he and Illyria knew too.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Otto

Angel remembers it, but Cordelia remembered pre-spell Connor as well. As did Bale (and possibly his subordinate wizards). And of course after Wesley broke the magic doodad he and Illyria knew too.

Smart-ass remarks are never worth the trouble, are they?

Cordelia was obviously immune to the spell, being mostly dead when it was cast; I've always assumed the Cordy we saw in her one fifth-seasons appearance was on a day trip from Heaven. And, if you're going to get all literal on me and list the persons whose memories were not affected by the Connor 2.0 spell, you forgot Eve (and, presumably, Hamilton).

[The Mighty Loa]

You know, DWMarch, I just recently rewatched the "beige" Angel episodes, and I have to say, not only did your assessment never occur to me, but I think you're spot-on. I guess Angel isn't the only one he did a good job of tricking. Though I do rather like the...poetry...of the home office being on Earth.

Spike's memories technically weren't affected by the spell, since he never knew Connor...

So I guess the only one at the end of the series who never knew the truth about Connor was Gunn.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

you forgot Eve

I've been trying to forget Eve since she debuted.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by cbawlmer

I don't think they ever brought up the wolf, ram, and hart thing again. Maybe the presence of those books in Pylea was only meant to suggest the firm's presence in many/all dimensions, but I always thought there would be more of a payoff to that bit.

I also thought it was a set-up to a big payoff later. Now, I tend to think it's just an indication that Wolf, Ram, and Hart are present in multiple dimensions, in different guises. Looks like they related to religion in Pylea and law in our dimension.