The Beginning of the Resurection of my Marriage ???

Damn, Damn, & Damn.

For those of you new to saga, here’s a linky to play with.

Well, my wife and I had a “date” last Friday. It was out 11th anniversary and we decided to go out. We agreed before hand that we would keep it light and easy. Just an evening out between close friends. To ignore the anniversary would be like avoiding the elephant in the room so we thought this was a good compromise between the traditional anniversary date and not doing anything at all. We avoided the romantic resturant and the romantic movie and went with a chain steak place and a disappointing comedy.

It was a pretty good time. We steered clear of problem subjects, having to shift gears a couple of times, but did alright.

I noticed at dinner that she wasn’t wearing her wedding/engagement set.
She hasn’t been wearing it for a little while now. I said something and she just said she forgot to put it back on. She intended, she said, to wear it and the heart pendant that I gave her for a wedding gift eleven years ago.

So, on the way to the movie, and I forgot the seque to this subject, I told her that I was thinking a bit about how I would date after the separation. I told her that I was going to have to be careful not to find a gold-digger or somebody just looking for a man to save her from an uncomfortable lifestyle. Mostly, this was a smokescreen on my part - I was trying to show her that I was accepting the inevitable and this was, indeed, an evening with with a good friend.

We sat together in the movie theater, holding hands. She leaned on my shoulder at times which suprised me. When the movie was over, we went out for dessert, holding hands over the table. I kept noticing that her wedding ring was gone and I was nostalgic while looking at a different ring she was wearing, the ruby ring I gave her for our tenth anniversary.

That ring is a mixed memory. I wanted to get her a three-diamond, past-present-future ring for our tenth but they were simply too expensive. I settled on this ruby ring because it was beautiful, IMO, and was in my price range. When I gave it to her, I could see the disappointment in her eyes, she was really expecting & hoping for a three-stone-ring.

We got home, and for old times sake we had sex. We had discussed this a bit earlier and I said (please, forgive the language) that I knew the difference between “making love” and “fucking” and I thought we could engage in the latter. Just “friends with benefits” it’s sometimes called.

Well, when it was all done, and she was leaving my bed for hers, I was moping a bit. She reminded me that this was all “just between friends” and I said that I know that and I was 99% with the program on that subject. Really, it didn’t feel like 99%, more like 50%.

Well, it comes out Saturday, the day after, in an argument, that she’s not so sure now. She’s starting to second-guess her committment to the breakup. Friday, she says, was a reminder of the good times and she is feeling more uncertainty. She says her parting comment to me that night was posturing on her side, too.

So - here we are, perhaps lying to each other and/or lying to ourselves. She’s spent weeks trying to convince me that we need to separate and now that I’ve finally come to agree with her, she’s starting to waffle.

I believed her comments enough that night that Saturday morning I moved my wedding band to my other hand. Now she’s saying she just was saying that and she’s not so sure now.

Good God! I’m confused.

She fixed me a nice breakfast this morning. She’s called me at my desk to let me know something that could’ve waiting 'til evening.

If it weren’t for the kids, I’d chuck it all, I don’t need this pain and confusion. Now, I don’t know what’s appropriate.

She’s still the same selfish person that she’s always been. Yesterday I saw her exasperation as we were setting the table. I was distracted and wasn’t helping her fully. (This, after I’ve cleaned the kitchen and set the table solo for the past four days or so). She’ll probably remain the poor housekeeper and spendthrift that she’s always been. She admits her poor decision in responding to personal ads but seems to want it swept under the rug as being in the past.

Is she demonstrating her desire to keep me or is this her self-preservation as her resume ages out in the real-world with no responses? Am I looking back to her out of fear for the unknown or desire for her?

Am I mis-reading all of this and her expressed confusion just a ploy to manipulate me? Her own sense of self-worth is going to want me to leave her, not the reverse.

This whole thing just sucks.

Dont’ know. What does your marriage counselor say?

(Hint, hint)

You’re not going to like what I say, but here goes. . .

You were wrong to either suggest or agree to this date. All you’ve done is confused things for yourself and your estranged. The sex just componded the damage. Things may be okay for a short period, but the root cause of what’s driven you two apart is still there. All that’s happened is a little muddying of the waters. Now, if you’re honest you’ll admit to yourself that what’s happened is precisely what you wanted. Doubt on her part opens the door to hope on your part. You know this, even if only subconciously.

Having said that, I don’t think you’re a bad person for encouraging the spark of reconciliation to ignite, even if it was a bit duplicitous. I can’t imagine how it must be to want everything to be the way things were during happier times so much that you’d do just about anything to force it to come about. What you should understand, however, is because this was not a mutual desire it probably won’t last. Her resentment will resurface at some point.

You need to back off, man. Don’t encourage one more iota of doubt in her mind. You’ve done what you’ve done, now let it go where it will. She needs to find out for herself if there’s something really there, or if it’s just the sweet high of nostalgia and post-coital satisfaction. Let her find her place. You can’t judge anything by reactions a day or three after shared intimacy.

Good luck.

There doesn’t have to be a bad guy here. My guess is that she’s not intentionally manipulating you, any more than you’re intentionally manipulating her. You’re both hurting, you’re both confused, and really, you should stay the hell away from each other as much as possible for a while. You both need perspective.

Good luck.

I think she’s scared. It’s the fear of the (relatively) unknown.
Regardless of how she feels, what about you? You obviously know she hasn’t changed. If she says she wants to keep trying, is that enough for you? Do you think it’ll really be a good marriage? Is there still respect and trust on both sides?
i’m sorry you’re having to go through this. Try not to make decisions based on fear or desperation. (yeah, I know, so easy to say, so difficult to do!)

What she said.

If you do decide to give it another try, go back to the marriage counselor. Her “me, me, me” attitude has got to change if the marriage is going to work.

Good luck. Keep us updated - I’ve been wondering how you were doing.

From OP’s Back from the Brink thread:

I’ll liken a damaged marriage to a complete fracture of…oh, how about your femur? If you’re not into total amputation, you need to seperate the pieces before you set them and get the thing healing again. Otherwise you’ll likely end up with something that is an ugly, malformed and painful mockery of what you had before. I am where you’re headed if you’re not careful, and I’m not having a good time and neither is she. (You can search for The Inigo Montoya Saga thread if you really want a front seat in my personal train wreck.)

You’re going to hear some good arguments for “Don’t stay together for the kids’ sake.” In the end it’s totally your call. As for me I’m doing what I consider to be “jumping on the grenade” in my marriage and not proceeding with a divorce. I am choosing total elimination of intimacy with my estranged. I won’t go into why I’m on that path, but I’m on it–the one you’re looking at yourself when you think maybe you can fix things up.

Dude, the bone has been broken and as I see it there are three ways to treat it. Amputate it, leave it alone and hope it heals properly on its own, or go through the pain and inconvenience of a real seperation (hint the 3 months I did was not nearly long enough). FTR I still consider my estranged to be a selfish witch. I am simply rebuilding myself in such a way that I don’t look to her for any flavor of emotional support, and I give none more than I would to a friend. We’re not fighting or nasty to one another so the kids don’t have to see that, and we are reasonably happy with the rest of our routines. We just aren’t in love anymore.

Given the e-mail & Craig’s list stuff, can you trust her not to satisfy herself outside of the marriage? Will you be able to look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that you trust her? Will you be able to look yourself in the mirror and find a shred of self-esteem? Because I’m down that road, and I have none of that.

And no good guys/bad guys in my opinion. Just the normal confusion and reluctance to address the fracture. It’s broke, dude. Lop it off. Especially if she’s demonstrated a sneaky and selfish face–Odds are it’s who she is in her core. Nobody needs that.

Oy. This could be me (without the craigslist stuff and the selfishness).

I am on a picket fence (and none too comfy at that) re my own marriage. This is going to sound crazy, but as soon as we said the words, “separate” to one another (not the kids, yet)–it was like all this pressure was gone. I dunno-maybe we just saw that we had options and that helped us have hope. He is not going to change and to be honest, neither am I. But is it so bad now? (obviously, I am navel-gazing here, sorry). The answer is I don’t know.
I think you both are giving out mixed signals because both of you are confused and uncertain as to the future. I would say this: if you are not going to separate, there needs to be a renegotiation of marital terms, hopefully mediated by a counselor.

It’s a huge, permanent step, divorce. I really don’t want to take it unless my back is to the wall. Then again, I am lonely inside my marriage. But even with everything, I can’t whip up the ire that seems necessary for me to kick him out and vice versa. I just wish I had a friend in this, is all…

Good luck. I hear ya re the sex and I can’t judge you for it. I do the same thing. High moral principles are all well and good, but.

A-Frickin-men!

Honey-if you are ever in town, I will buy you a coffee or a beer*. We could share a Kleenex or laugh in a truly warped way…

*not a euphemism, I mean some type of liquid refreshment! :slight_smile:

The problem with nostalgia is that it forgets the pain and only focuses on the good. It is history, filtered through rose-colored glasses. Quit looking at the past and try to focus on the present. To me, before I’d recommit to saving the relationship, I would:

  1. Banish ambivalence. Either she was 100% committed to saving it or the separation would continue. There is no room for “I don’t know if I want to be with you or not” in a marriage. And, quite honestly, it is not attractive for anyone to allow someone to string them along.

  2. Insist on marriage counseling. The problems that led you to this point aren’t going to magically disappear. You need to discover the root problems, assess whether they can be repaired, and work on fixing them. If she gets pissed off because you aren’t setting the table properly, I can guarantee you that housekeeping is NOT the real issue.

  3. Insist on financial counseling. Money is the #1 reason couples divorce. Your wife sounds like she is financially immature. This cannot continue. Experts recommend engaging the “spendthrift” in the financial process, including setting realistic budgets and spending allowances. Whether you separate or not, she is going to have to start acting like a grown up. Expect it. Demand it.

  4. Quit focusing on the little things. IMO, you shouldn’t have mentioned the rings. I don’t wear my wedding rings half the time because it’s hard to get tennis balls out of your pocket with a big old ring. My commitment to my marriage has NOTHING to do with whether or not the rings are on my finger.

Good luck to you.

Belrix, a couple of questions…

Do you really *want * to stay together? Do you love her? Do you trust her? Do you think that you can make it work? Or are you just not able to imagine (yet) what your life is going to be like from now on, and you’re afraid that it just might suck? And how about her? Which of these do you feel most accurately sums up her mindset?

I went through a breakup recently (we weren’t married, but we were together for nine years). It sucked. It’s scary. And for a while, I thought that I’d be happier if we were back together. But I wouldn’t, not in the long run. I know that if we did get back together, within a month (tops!) I’d remember all the reasons we ended it, and that we were *right * to end it. The breakup of a long relationship is hard. It’s painful, and terrifying, and humiliating, but it also gives you the rest of your life back.

Being with the wrong person can suck an awful lot of the joy out of life. Are you sure that you’re the right people for each other? Can you be happy together? If not, don’t go back.

Good luck.

Um, baloney. There’s plenty of room for ambivalence in any marriage-it’s two different people, sometimes with conflicting needs or desires. Ambivalence should not run the marriage, and there should be ways to navigate through it, but all in all, it’s a feeling. Everyone’s entitled to it.

I’m with you re the nostalgia, though. But I am finding that you don’t just up and leave a marriage-I mean, some do, but that is not the way it happens all the time. It kind of peels off in layers.

Believe me, I have often wished that my husband would do something almost heinous (not involving the kids), so that I could get up that righteous indignation and energy and throw him out. We seem to be fading away, rather than abruptly ending-if we are ending. Perhaps we are in a death spiral or perhaps we are not. No doubt the OP has some of the same thoughts, upon occasion. That seems predictable to me.

I’ll reiterate what I said in the other thread - the only way your relationship with this woman stands a ghost of a chance is if you are able to tell her you don’t want her back and mean it. That doesn’t mean you *have * to tell her to leave, but you have to be able to if you want to.

Right now you are hopelessly addicted to this woman and can’t tell her no. I suspected in the previous thread that she’s always wanted you you to assert yourself. All the bratty things she was doing were testing you, pushing limits until you stood your ground and firmly told her to knock it off.

Now I’m sure this is the case. The first time you do something *slightly * assertive, indicate in a tiny way that you may not be under her power, she jumps into bed with you and starts talking reconciliation. She wants to act like a princess, and she wants you to act like the King.

Since you’re walking a path I haven’t walked, I have no advice. Only this: If life were easy and predictible, we’d all be happy n rich.

But it’s not. I only hope you look back and realize you did the right things at the right times and things end up for the best.

I respectfully disagree. Belrix has given his wife plenty of time and space to decide what she wants to do. It’s beginning to smack of cruelty and is putting Belrix on an emotional rollercoaster that isn’t healthy or fair.

Belrix, repeat after me: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has a bill like a duck . . .

It’s over, man. Just because she uses you for a little sex it doesn’t mean that anything’s changed for the better. My relationship went through the same thing in college, although we weren’t married. Basically, she’s using you until she gets enough courage to step into the real world, and once that happens, it’s over for good.

Look, maybe you need to learn some life’s lessons. We all do. I sure haven’t learned everything there is to learn out there. The thing is, Belrix, there are better, less painful ways to learn those lessons (assertiveness, for instance) that don’t involve an emotionally and financially draining marriage to an unstable woman. No offense, I can see that you still have feelings for her, but she’s unstable. Believe me. I’ve been there.

Dare I make a radical suggestion? Just let her go, and focus on picking up the pieces for awhile. Don’t wallow in self-pity and loathing, learn the lessons and come out a stronger man. Then you’ll be ready for a good relationship with someone who might actually enrich your life instead of suck it dry.

I hope I didn’t offend you. Like I said, I can tell you still have a lot of feelings for her, but one of life’s lessons is learning when to leave a bad situation alone, and from what I can see, you’re in a bad situation.

I’ll just second (third?) this sentiment.

We all bring our own baggage to these advice threads, and some of the advice you’ll receive here is no-doubt wise, and certainly learned at great pain. But following counsel off the internet, which may be fine for a “should I go to college” question, is perhaps better handled by a flesh-and-blood expert.

Also, and most importantly, this is someone who can hear both sides of the discussion - you’ll pardon my frankness I hope, but your wife has a perspective in this as well, and maybe a counsellor could integrate both perspectives and facillitate a resolution agreeable to you both. Best of luck.

Just say no.