Hey, is this a racist symbol?!

[Lizard]

Okay, I was thinking about what to get for my fourth tattoo. I thought it would be really cool to get that coiled up snake that appears on the cover of Metallica's "black" album of 1991. For those unfamiliar with the album or the symbol, it was originally used during the American Revolution, and usually appeared with the slogan "Don't tread on me." I thought I would get the slogan as well.
Anyway, I showed this symbol to a black friend of mine and told him of my plans. He looked surprised and said "Isn't that a Confederate symbol? I could've sworn they used that during the Civil War."

So NOW I'm a little freaked. I don't want to get something that could possibly be mistaken as racist. Has anyone ever heard of this symbol having racist connections?? Please help!

[BobT]

I don't think you'd be considered racist, but you might looked on as a member of a local militia group. It's more of an anti-government symbol than a racist symbol.

[Derleth]

BobT is right. However, some of those militias are racist and antisemetic. The ones around here (Montana) seem to be, at least. So the symbol could be construed as being as racist as the militia groups that use it.

[Kyberneticist]

Originally posted by Derleth
#!/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL
$m=unpack(H.$w,$m \"\0"x$w);$_=`echo"16do$w 2+40i0$d+-^1[d2%Sa
2/d0>X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print
pack('H*'$_)while read(STDIN,$m, ($w=2*$d-1+length($n)&~1)/2)

Alright, I give up (granted, I haven't tried too terribly hard).
I consider myself fairly good at reading and generating cryptic perl, but this often used export-a-crypto-system-sig keeps defying casual inspection.
By any chance, do you understand it, and would be willing to break it down into a more readable format?

[Derleth]

Sorry, Kyber, I honestly don't understand it any more than you. I'm not a Perl coder. I suspect it's been condensed so efficiently only a Perl master could grok it. Heck, I'm impressed that someone could fit that functionality into only three lines of actual code!

[Bob Scene]

Here's the Anti-Defamation League's database about hate symbols. Your snake isn't on their list, but you might be surprised at what is.

http://www.adl.org/frames/front_hate_symbols.html

[Johnny L.A.]

I went to the ADL site. The peace sign is a "hate symbol"?

This symbol was popularized during the Vietnam War era to symbolize peace but it also can signify the defeat of Christianity and the mockery of the cross of Christ.

Okay, I remember hearing the "broken cross" theory when I was a kid. But I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now. Here's my reasoning: Peace symbols were used bu "hippies". God-fearing Americans with buzz-cuts and ties, and their wimmin-folk, saw that the hippies didn't buy into their morality. They equated the hippie lifestyle with "sin", and came up with an interpretation of the peace sign after it already existed and contrary to its intent. AFAIK, the peace sign was never used by its users as a symbol of hate, but was interpreted by The Establisment-types as a hate symbol to fit into thier "hatred" of the "hippie movement". To me, the peace sign looks like the foot print of a dove -- a Christian symbol of peace and love.

(WARNING: This post is being made before my caffeine fix.)

[Minxsmom]

The "Peace" sign is also the rune EOLH (the rune of protection) in a reversed position with a circle around it.

Here is the info on the rune. It is available in many places, but I happened to get it this time from this site: http://www.olivialeigh.com/

AKA: Algiz, Elhaz

Eolh means protection.

This is a very positive and protective sign. Temptation is resisted and new beginnings are possible. There
are fortunate new influences in your life with friendships, romances, and your career. You have made a
willing sacrifice that has paid off. New relationships based on friendship and trust will enliven you. You are
offered safety and victory during a battle or struggle. You have discovered your safe place. No life is
without pain, but if you can learn from the pain and support those around you the rewards will be great.

REVERSED

There is a new danger to your life. Keep your back against a wall and do not allow yourself to become
vulnerable. Trust no one. Someone is trying to take advantage of you or sacrifice you for their own needs.
Beware of unsuccessful or unscrupulous business dealings. Do not let greed destroy you.

[rngadam]

I was rather surprised myself to see the Anarchist sign on ADL list of "hate symbol". Frankly, I had never seen it associated with racism and it put it doubt the other symbols on the page...

[scratch1300]

In defense of the ADL, I wouldn't suppose they thought the anarchy or peace symbol to be racist per se, but like some other things (e.g., shaving one's head, wearing Doc Martens, etc.) might be a warning sign in conjunction with other, less innocuous behaviors.

[Minxsmom]

The Celtic Cross and the Runes are racist?

It's bad enough that they lump the Wheel of the Sun in with that aberration of Hitler's, but give me a break. Did you read their reasoning for the Celtic Cross and the Runes? Because some skinheaded dodos decided to take up a religion, that automatically makes it a "racist" religion and therefore anything to do with that religion is racist? Expect to see the Cross and the Star of David on there any day now.

Crap like that just ticks me off - as if there isn't enough fear and tension and hate stuff going on already - do they have to read into everything and make it mean that you hate someone else? Is anything safe? Next thing you know, me wearing my claddaugh is going to mean that I'm an Irish Supremist and I hate everyone else. (I do, but that's beside the point )

[Diceman]

The Anti-defamation League is stretching things pretty thin by listing the peace sign and the anarchy symbol as "symbols of hate." I'm waiting for them to list the smiley face. And the Celtic cross? Please. It was a respected Christian symbol centuries before some hate group piked it up. The Confederate flag is a debatable inclusion, since altough some hate groups use it, most of the people who fly it consider it a cultural/ethnic symbol. (If you want to argue the "What does the Confederate flag stand for?" question, please open another thread so this one doesn't get hijacked. Preferably in Great Debates, where I won't have to read it )

[Minxsmom]

Originally posted by scratch1300
In defense of the ADL, I wouldn't suppose they thought the anarchy or peace symbol to be racist per se, but like some other things (e.g., shaving one's head, wearing Doc Martens, etc.) might be a warning sign in conjunction with other, less innocuous behaviors.

scratch, I can see your point. However, someone without your power of reasoning is going to read that page, and someone like myself, wearing my Celtic Cross, Peace Sign, or other various Runes jewelry is going to get hurt for being something they're not. I'm flaky, not racist.

[Cardinal]

IIRC, Bertand Russell popularized the "peace sign" as a take-off of the semaphore positions for N and D, or nuclear disarmamant.

[Captain Amazing]

Maybe when they say "racist symbol" they mean "Symbol known to be used by a racist group. For example, the Celtic Cross is used by some white power groups (which I found out from clicking on it), the Swastika is used by Nazis...neither the Celtic Cross or Swastika are themselves racist symbols...but they've become associated with racist groups.

[mobo85]

As far as I know, the don't tread on me snake was used during the American Revolution, not the Civil War.

[tomndebb]

Cecil's description of the Peace Symbol (with one loon's repy).

I'd go with Captain Amazing's thought. The ADL is displaying symbols that have been used or interpreted in hateful ways. I think the ADL is pushing it with the Peace Symbol (I doubt that many skinheads are actually wearing peace symbols to taunt Christians), but the Celtic Cross has become an actively displayed sign for several British outfits.

I would guess that the idea would be to include various designs so that if one shows up as graffiti in your neighborhood, (or your kid's notebook), you could look around to see if there are other indicators of a problem, as well.

[oldscratch]

To answer the OP. It could be seen that way, it isn't, but you know, everyone's so up on their history these days To be safe, you might want to get "Mettalica" in big red gothic letters behind it, or go out and create your own coiled snake symbol that doesn't look like the don't tread on my flag. BTW, SF fly's that flag along with a number of other historical ones in front of the capitol.

[oldscratch]

Although you probably will get less laughs and derision pointed your way if you get "Metallica" tattooed instead.

Stupid scratch

[Lizard]

Originally posted by oldscratch
To answer the OP. It could be seen that way, it isn't, but you know, everyone's so up on their history these days To be safe, you might want to get "Mettalica" in big red gothic letters behind it

Actually, I'm not THAT big a Metallica fan. I just like the symbol, and the rebellious spirit it evokes. I can see why some militia groups have co-opted this symbol. Not only is it very potent visually, but it has historical significance that gives it even more weight.

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I'm going to go check out that ADL site now.

At this juncture I'm thinking it might be better to avoid getting a tattoo that has even the slightest chance of being misunderstood.

[oldscratch]

Have you seen my tattoo? I think it's up somewhere. I was once asked if I was a Nazi because of it. If you see it you'll understand. Every tattoo has the oportunity to be misunderstood, some more than others. The idea of a coiled snake ready to strike is cool, I'm just suggesting that you get a tattoo of one that doesn't look like the flag.

And btw, what are your other tattoos?

[Lizard]

Originally posted by oldscratch
And btw, what are your other tattoos?

I have a small black dragon in the shape of an "S" with a red head on my inside right forearm. I have a pointed cross on my left bicep that is just line work. (It was my first) And I just recently got a five-color Aztec bird on my right bicep. It's still peeling.

I think you're right about changing the design. I'm not an artist though, so getting the design I want drawn could be problematic.

What exactly does your tattoo look like?

[barton]

http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/rattlesnake.html

The above link is Ben Franklin himself describing the 'Don't Tread On Me' symbol in question. Given his positive review of it as a better symbol of America than the bald eagle, which he thought didn't make its living honestly.

I would say it's rather patriotic.

[oldscratch]

Originally posted by Lizard

I think you're right about changing the design. I'm not an artist though, so getting the design I want drawn could be problematic.

What exactly does your tattoo look like?

If you go to a good tatto artist, they will be more than willing to work with you on the design. You can take some preliminary sketches, maybe a picture from national geographic or something, tell em what you want, they'll flesh it out.

As for my tattoo.
http://www.lava.net/~lani/sfdopefest/pages/bar1_jpg.htm

It's a red band with a black star. On the otherside is a square surrounded by a circle, it also has some little points. Somehow, someone asked if I was a Nazi, I said no it's not a Nazi symbol. They said, well you could get a swastika in that square or something (it does kinda look like a frame). go figure.

[waterj2]

No one's provided the link yet?

http://members.nbci.com/dopetats/index.html

I figure I'll have to take the plunge soon, myself. I just can never make up my mind. But if oldscratch is offering his services as a tattoo consultant... Of course, he'd probably try to sneak some socialist propaganda into it . Maybe I'll start an MPSIMS thread volunteering him for the role.

[Johnny L.A.]

I read Cecil's response in the link provided above. He mentions:

One Bircher wrote that the broken cross had originally been devised by the Roman emperor Nero, who had Saint Peter crucified upon it upside down. In the Middle Ages the symbol allegedly was used to signify the devil.

I thought that St. Peter requested to be crucified upside-down (since he was going to be crucified anyway) because he felt he was not worthy to be crucified rightside-up, like Christ? Or am I paying too much attention to A&E?

[oldscratch]

Originally posted by waterj2
But if oldscratch is offering his services as a tattoo consultant...

May I recomend a clenched fist, it's a symbol of libertarianism. Or maybe a half-red half-black star? Also a libertarian symbol.


My main recomendations for tattos are to design em yourself. In this age of Illustrator, photoshop, and painter, there really isn't an excuse not to. and you'll feel pretty cool having your own artwork on your body.

Me, I'm looking at getting either a Miro or a Lewitt piece tattoed on my back.

[mangeorge]

The way I heard it, the peace sign represents semaphore for "N" (neuclear), and "D" (disarmament}.
Could be. See for tourself;
http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/semaphor.htm
Peace,
mangeorge

[evilbeth]

Originally posted by tomndebb

I'd go with Captain Amazing's thought. The ADL is displaying symbols that have been used or interpreted in hateful ways. I think the ADL is pushing it with the Peace Symbol (I doubt that many skinheads are actually wearing peace symbols to taunt Christians), but the Celtic Cross has become an actively displayed sign for several British outfits.

Well, not to add to the hijack in progress, but if that's all they are doing, then where is the traditional, upright Christian cross? Doesn't burning those in people's yards classify as being used in a hateful way?

[Celyn]

Re. Celtic Cross used by "several British oufits" - Oh,really? I assume from the context that these "British oufits" are racist groups. Of course I would find that abhorrent in the extreme, but I wonder how much truth there is behind that assertion. I am not so far aware of a Celtic Cross symbol being taken over by that type of group, and I certainly hope that such will not be the case in future. Thus far, thankfully, I have not observed this phenomenon, and I hope never so do to. What "British outfits" (oh, it so difficult not to spell it as misfits) and where are they?

[Odesio]

Originally posted by Celyn
Re. Celtic Cross used by "several British oufits" - Oh,really? I assume from the context that these "British oufits" are racist groups. Of course I would find that abhorrent in the extreme, but I wonder how much truth there is behind that assertion.

I don't know about English misfits but here in the United States some of our misfits use them. The Ku Klux Klan uses them, or at least they used to, on banners and publications.

Marc

[yojimbo]

Anybody who is offended by the Celtic Cross should stay away from Ireland. It is a very popular chain decoration and there are Celtic Crosses all over the place over here. I live beside a 12ft one.

[Chance the Gardener]

The Don't tread on me snake was one of the flags used by the Americans in the Revolutionary War when no one had yet agreed on the national flag. The choice of the snake inferred that we would strike at the heel of any enemy that tried to tromp on us. Then Betsy Ross ran out of red and white fabric so she couldn't finish that slip she was sewing, so she threw a blue patch to plug the gap and donated it to a rummage sale. Then, the legend has it, George Washington dropped in at the Valley Forge Salvation Army to pick up some coats for his freezing troops, ran across the discarded slip, and the rest, they say, is history. (Never mind what Washington was doing checking out women's clothes; that's a whole other thread.)

Anyhow, don't worry about the snake flag—it's not a racist symbol. I guess racist symbols are merely what people turn them into, though. The original skinheads were actually leftists, but the look was coöpted by right-wing thugs, so the idea of the skinhead thus lost all association with leftist thought. Further, there's the swastika, which was used as a fertility symbol by the ancient Celts and as something much the same by the Hopi Indians. In the 1920s, the Boy Scouts of America even had something called the Order of the Swastika (I'm not kidding!) which was changed to the Order of the Arrow once the United States went to war with Germany. The Order of the Arrow persists to this day in scouting, though its history is seldom discussed, despite the fact that its origin was not the least bit racist.

I say you should go ahead and adorn your body with whatever symbols you like, but make sure you know what you're putting on your body beforehand. I mean damn, it could look pretty, but I don't imagine you want to discover you've turned yourself into a walking advertisement for fascism after the fact. Perhaps it's also worth considering that some people might take certain symbols very seriously and wouldn't like to see them worn this way. I realize that consideration for others with no immediate personal gain in mind isn't exactly trendy these days, but I think that's a worthwhile consideration. (Okay, you reactionaries; go ahead and call me "politically correct," whatever the hell that means.)

[Saint Zero]

I recall that one Japanese Manga book had a main character who wore the original symbol the Nazi's reversed and used. They had to explain in the front of every book that it wasn't what you thought, it'd been in Asia for centuries, ect ect...

Everything is going to turn into a hate symbol one of these days.

[Johnny L.A.]

I recall that one Japanese Manga book had a main character who wore the original symbol the Nazi's reversed and used. They had to explain in the front of every book that it wasn't what you thought, it'd been in Asia for centuries, ect ect...

I ran into the same thing at the Carlsberg brewery in Copenhagen. (Take the tour, get free beer!) The tour guide took great pains to point out that the swastikas that adorned their elephant sculptures were of ancient Indian origin and had nothing to do with the Nazi party.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by Chance the Gardener
The original skinheads were actually leftists, but the look was coöpted by right-wing thugs, so the idea of the skinhead thus lost all association with leftist thought.

Really?! How long ago are we talking here? When did the conversion to right-wingism begin?

[oldscratch]

I would actually like to clarrify what CtheG said. The original skinheads were a working-class movement in England, or more precisely a wanna-be working class movement. They fetsishized working class ideas, working class beliefs, so on. This involved some left-wong some right wing (anti-immigration) ideas. There are still plenty of left-wng skinheads. SHARP being a big one. Skin-heads against racial prejudice. There are also left-wing and right-wing mods. There are different ways to tell which beliefs someone holds. Sometimes, it has to do with the color they lace their boots. This varies from country to country. Tattoos, and various buttons are usually the best way though.

[tomndebb]

What "British outfits" (oh, it so difficult not to spell it as misfits) and where are they?

From the ADL link, above:

First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England, and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver.

The ADL site claims that the KKK were the first users. The National Front has placed it in a black ring with the words "White Pride World Wide" around it. Since I have never seen the symbol used by the Klan, I made the guess that it had a rather brief usage before being borrowed by the National Front.

There are two smaller groups that I have seen use it, but I am not that familiar with British hate groups and they could have been simply fringe elements of or chapters of the National Front--reducing the "British outfits" to only one.

It should be noted that the symbol displayed (on both examples in the link) is not truly a celtic cross, but simply a greek cross with the circle surrounding the intersection of the horizontal and vertical lines. A true celtic cross is a latin cross (i.e., a cross in which the horizontal line is nearer the top) with the inscribed circle or, in many cases, a cross similar to the latin cross, but in which the upright widens gradually from the cross-piece to the base. Neither of the symbols used by the haters meets the description of a celtic cross.

[scratch1300]

Originally posted by Celyn
What "British outfits" (oh, it so difficult not to spell it as misfits) and where are they?

[b]Celyn, here are misfits enough for you. I hope they don't ruin the Celtic cross like Hitler ruined the swastika....