Ask the Former Restroom-Sex Afficionado (in light of the Sen. Craig scandal)

[jayjay]

The recent scandal with Senator Craig and restroom sex has raised a lot of questions and confusion among Dopers not terribly familiar with this aspect of gay culture. I'm going to try to remedy that, I think.

For a LONG time (from the age of 14 to about 10 years ago), I was an avid stall-crawler. For various reasons having to do with the times, my upbringing, my own relationship with my sexuality and body-image in general, and the areas I lived in, I have a rather intimate knowledge of this aspect of gay life.

So, if the scandal with Senator Craig has any of you confused, bewildered or otherwise curious, ask away! I'm not going to guarantee I'll answer every question (I DO have to see some of you face-to-face, after all!), I'll try to clear up any confusion anyone has.

Also, I have no intention of getting terribly lurid here. I'm answering general questions about procedure and motivation and such, not providing a Playguy Forum. Hopefully, that will keep this in GD...

[Chief Pedant]

Well, does the officer's story seem legit?
This sort of thing does go on, then, with total strangers soliciting others?

If so, then is it at all likely the Senator was misinterpreted?

I must confess: I am shocked. SHOCKED. At the lifestyle and the Senator.
Shouldn't he be rich and connected enough to get some sort of scheduled, quality, upscale gay sex with pre-screened partners?

[Freddy the Pig]

According to the news reports, the Senator's first move was to make eye contact through the crack between the stall door and the wall. Did you ever do this? Isn't there a terrible risk that the target won't be looking for gay sex, and will get creeped out and think you're a deve, or even make threatening comments? Is that just part of the chance that you take?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Chief Pedant

Well, does the officer's story seem legit?
This sort of thing does go on, then, with total strangers soliciting others?

If so, then is it at all likely the Senator was misinterpreted?

I must confess: I am shocked. SHOCKED. At the lifestyle and the Senator.
Shouldn't he be rich and connected enough to get some sort of scheduled, quality, upscale gay sex with pre-screened partners?

The officer's story absolutely checks out to me. I really didn't find anything in it that didn't sound perfectly in tune with the intention of having a quickie either right there or in a more deserted restroom.

I've been reading various people's (both Doper and non) incredulousness about how thin the evidence was, which was one of the reasons I started this. Everything the officer reported is standard procedure for this type of operation.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig

According to the news reports, the Senator's first move was to make eye contact through the crack between the stall door and the wall. Did you ever do this? Isn't there a terrible risk that the target won't be looking for gay sex, and will get creeped out and think you're a deve, or even make threatening comments? Is that just part of the chance that you take?

Sometimes. If you're picky about what you're getting with, you might want to take a peek. It's easily shrugged off as an accidental glimpse if the person isn't really interested (or outraged) and eye contact will usually tell you in about a second if there IS interest there.

I tended to be a bit more cautious. Didn't like crowded restrooms, usually started off with tapping or stretching for a look at their shoes or legs to check apparent age. But the peek is also standard.

[Malodorous]

Isn't an airport restroom kinda extra risky? I'd be hard pressed to think of a place with more bored cops and security personnel then an airport, especially post 9/11.

[plnnr]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

Isn't an airport restroom kinda extra risky? I'd be hard pressed to think of a place with more bored cops and security personnel then an airport, especially post 9/11.

For years the New York Port Authority Terminal was very well known for cruising. You'd be hard pressed to find a busier location.

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Chief Pedant

I must confess: I am shocked. SHOCKED. At the lifestyle and the Senator.
Shouldn't he be rich and connected enough to get some sort of scheduled, quality, upscale gay sex with pre-screened partners?

I thought so, too. But a friend suggested that maybe whoever was procuring sex partners would end up blackmailing/spilling it. That is, there's no one you can trust.

My questions are:

What are the signs that someone is interested? Is it eye contact, or something more elaborate?

Do straight guys get pissed off if you try making those kinds of advances, or are they more confused? Can you tell who's straight and who's not before making advances?

Were you more often the person making the advances or fending off/receiving someone else's proposition?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

Isn't an airport restroom kinda extra risky? I'd be hard pressed to think of a place with more bored cops and security personnel then an airport, especially post 9/11.

Risk is part of the allure. Like I said, I haven't gone stall-crawling in over a decade, but I still get a little bit of a thrill when I happen to use a restroom that is obviously a cruising toilet.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Zoggie

My questions are:

What are the signs that someone is interested? Is it eye contact, or something more elaborate?

Do straight guys get pissed off if you try making those kinds of advances, or are they more confused? Can you tell who's straight and who's not before making advances?

Were you more often the person making the advances or fending off/receiving someone else's proposition?

1. Eye contact, return taps (and it's not random tapping...if the other person returns the taps in the general pattern you used, it's pretty much sure they're interested), a general feeling...it's like the near-mythical "gaydar". And in well-known cruising toilets, most of the guys are going to be there for that particular activity.

2. Most straight guys don't even know it's happening. The evidence for that is most of the straight-person reaction to the Craig story. "He just tapped his foot!" There's a definite difference in feeling about someone on the make and someone who's just their to use the restroom.

3. A mix. It depended on the feeling I got about my "friend" over the wall.

[Malodorous]

Originally Posted by jayjay

Risk is part of the allure. Like I said, I haven't gone stall-crawling in over a decade, but I still get a little bit of a thrill when I happen to use a restroom that is obviously a cruising toilet.

I guess that makes sense. And as a bonus, if your semi-famous closeted politician for whom getting caught will probably mean national ridicule and the end of your career, I bet your able to enjoy a whole new level of allure unavailable to the normal citizen stall-crawler (is that really the term??)

[Lemur866]

How do I put this delicately?

Aren't you likely to find yourself having confronted with some hideous troll when you do this? What do you do when you open the other door and throw up in your mouth a little? How often did you back out once you got a look at the guy?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Malodorous

stall-crawler (is that really the term??)

I actually made that word up, a long time ago. Don't know if anyone else uses it (though it wouldn't surprise me), but it sprang like Athena full-grown from my brain...

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

How do I put this delicately?

Aren't you likely to find yourself having confronted with some hideous troll when you do this? What do you do when you open the other door and throw up in your mouth a little? How often did you back out once you got a look at the guy?

I generally made my assessment based on the shoes and/or legs. I wasn't into very older guys (which, for most of that time, meant 40+), so sneakers were good. So were denim and nylon (basketball/track) shorts. Dress shoes, suit trousers, dark socks, or plain cotton shorts weren't so great, as they usually meant older. The apparent condition of legs was also a signal...if the hair on them was white, no go. If they looked young and in shape (as opposed to wrinkly or spindly) half of my criteria were met.

I generally didn't commit myself unless I thought the person fit my type. It's fairly easy to do that...you ignore them until they get frustrated and move on. I've been roped into a few that I probably wouldn't have touched with a 10-foot pole otherwise, but I was raised to be polite and telling them to scram after I'd issued the invitation would have been rude. Besides, I was no great catch myself (I kept telling myself)...

I should note that I was also checking age to keep myself out of more trouble than I was already possibly getting myself into (at least after I turned 18). The only thing more guaranteed to stoke outrage than offering restroom sex to a straight man is offering restroom sex to a minor (by accident or design). And yes, I know that attitude is inconsistent with the age I began doing this stuff...

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

How do I put this delicately?

Aren't you likely to find yourself having confronted with some hideous troll when you do this? What do you do when you open the other door and throw up in your mouth a little? How often did you back out once you got a look at the guy?

Not a gay guy (or even a guy) but I heard that the exit strategy is staggered to keep it anonymous. I don't think there's a handshake or a backslap afterward.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Were you conditioned by your bathroom exploits, such that you now get an erection whenever you smell feces, urine, or certain varieties of air freshener?

[John Mace]

I haven't followed the details of this story, but how is what he did illegal? I can see that it might be illegal to have sex in a public bathroom, but how is what is essentially just flirting made illegal? From what I heard, he tapped his foot and the police officer tapped back, so it wasn't like he was forcing himself on someone (which even a little inter-stall footsie wouldn't be, either).

I'm confused.

BTW... great idea for thread, jayjay! I'm glad to hear that things seem to be better for you in the last 10 years or so.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by John Mace

I haven't followed the details of this story, but how is what he did illegal? I can see that it might be illegal to have sex in a public bathroom, but how is what is essentially just flirting made illegal? From what I heard, he tapped his foot and the police officer tapped back, so it wasn't like he was forcing himself on someone (which even a little inter-stall footsie wouldn't be, either).

I'm confused.

BTW... great idea for thread, jayjay! I'm glad to hear that things seem to be better for you in the last 10 years or so.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure how the legality of things plays out here. I do know that the police/security who patrol places known for such things are trained to recognize the signals, and if the statute against public lewdness is interpreted to include solicitation to commit public lewdness, it would at least give some cover of law. Otherwise, I'm not too aware of how it fits.

Things ARE better. I have a better relationship with myself and with my place in the world than I did then, and I live in an area and time-period that's at least nominally tolerant of homosexuality now. That's the reason behind a LOT of this kind of behavior, really. I think as sexual orientation becomes less of a "thing", the restroom-sex is going to fade out to the point where only deeply closeted men and risk fetishists are going to be doing it.

[tomndebb]

I'm not sure whether this is MPSIMS or IMHO material, but I see no Great Debate. (If someone wants to debate the legalities of pick-ups in public places, entrapment, or homosexual behavior, generally, open a new thread.)

I guess I'll send this to IMHO, for now.


(Yeah. I know some people worship sex, but this still does not look like witnessing, to me.)


[ /Moderating ]

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Were you conditioned by your bathroom exploits, such that you now get an erection whenever you smell feces, urine, or certain varieties of air freshener?

Not that I know of (though I may have a higher tolerance for that chemically strawberry fragrance of urinal cake than the average man). Like I said, if I happen to stumble upon an obvious cruising toilet, I still get a little adrenalin thrill (though I don't really feel the need to "try it out", as it were). But I don't find water sports or scat or even the smell of either to be erotic at all. People generally don't cruise toilets because they find bodily waste sexy. They cruise toilets because they're at least semi-private (and wholly safe if it's a bathroom-door coin-op...the rattle of the coin in the box is as good as an air raid siren), and because the relevant parts are generally uncovered in them anyway.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

I'm not sure whether this is MPSIMS or IMHO material, but I see no Great Debate. (If someone wants to debate the legalities of pick-ups in public places, entrapment, or homosexual behavior, generally, open a new thread.)

I guess I'll send this to IMHO, for now.


(Yeah. I know some people worship sex, but this still does not look like witnessing, to me.)


[ /Moderating ]

Thanks, tom. I wasn't sure where it was supposed to go.

[ArchiveGuy]

Here's a recreation of what happened in the Craig case, based on the officer's report.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by ArchiveGuy

Here's a recreation of what happened in the Craig case, based on the officer's report.

Nice!

Now, how on earth can that be illegal?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by ArchiveGuy

Here's a recreation of what happened in the Craig case, based on the officer's report.

Looks about right, to me. A little exaggerated, obviously, but otherwise standard procedure.

[Waverly]

Thanks for the earlier answers in the Craig thread. Without getting graphic, because that isn’t necessary, how do the two participants… err… ‘call the play’ – agree to an act they’re both interested in. What if they have wildly different ideas?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Nice!

Now, how on earth can that be illegal?

If a neighborhood has had a rash of car vandalism (spraypaint, for example), and the police arrest a gang of kids who were carrying around cans of spraypaint of the same color that had been used before at night in this neighborhood, you can see the reason for the arrests even though they didn't actually do anything that the officer saw, right?

It's the same thing here. The airport had been getting complaints about public sex in the restrooms for a while before this. Craig exhibited classic signs of angling for some public sex in the restroom. Again, I'm not a lawyer and I can't give a professional opinion, but I do think the officer had cause.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by jayjay

I actually made that word up, a long time ago. Don't know if anyone else uses it (though it wouldn't surprise me), but it sprang like Athena full-grown from my brain...

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Waverly

Thanks for the earlier answers in the Craig thread. Without getting graphic, because that isn’t necessary, how do the two participants… err… ‘call the play’ – agree to an act they’re both interested in. What if they have wildly different ideas?

Restroom sex is generally not terribly creative. You could be interrupted at any second and you have to be able to jump out of it quickly. Blow jobs and hand jobs are the most common things. I've been the "top" for anal sex in a restroom before, but it was a coin-op room (not coin-op stalls), so we would have had a good five or more seconds after the coin dropped to separate and scatter into the stalls before anyone could have come in.

Mostly, though, it's feel-up, jack-off, or blow job. Depending on the timidity of one or both participants, it could just be "look don't touch".

[ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness]

Originally Posted by jayjay

I still get a little bit of a thrill when I happen to use a restroom that is obviously a cruising toilet.

Originally Posted by jayjay

Like I said, if I happen to stumble upon an obvious cruising toilet,

What are the "obvious" signs of a cruising toilet? I suppose a glory hole might be one, but what else? Are they something a straight guy would recognize, or completely overlook?

[Phlosphr]

I've got to ask: In this day and age AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases are certainly not passe, they are very much alive and well. Did you just think you would not get them? Or did you somehow think everything would be ok?

[Billdo]

Originally Posted by jayjay

Mostly, though, it's feel-up, jack-off, or blow job. Depending on the timidity of one or both participants, it could just be "look don't touch".

In the case or oral or manual sex, how is it determined which of the participants will be in which role (the jacked off or the jacker off, for instance)? Does the manner of approach have anything to do with it? Do the actions of Sen. Craig provide any suggestion of the act he was likely soliciting?

What are the mechanics of the actual hook-up? I presume it would usually be within a stall, but how does that work?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Athena

Minerva?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness

What are the "obvious" signs of a cruising toilet? I suppose a glory hole might be one, but what else? Are they something a straight guy would recognize, or completely overlook?

A restroom that doesn't seem to be visited by maintenance too often. A little run-down. A little dirty. Glory-holes, obviously, but also some form of early warning...a coin-op door, a dog-leg corridor between the door and the main restroom, etc. You get a feel for this kind of thing after a while.

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

I'm curious what, if any, precautions people take to avoid disease. Is it mostly confined to oral sex, which I guess is less risky than anal, or do people use condoms?

Personally, I can't imagine sharing my intimate bits with some stranger who may or may not be totally skeevy. (Then again, my sexual interests have never been subject to heavy taboos that disallow open relationships.)

I see I'm too slow a typer. Of course handjobs would be the obvious answer. Still interested in whether people ever use condoms, though.

[samm]

Originally Posted by jayjay

Like I said, if I happen to stumble upon an obvious cruising toilet, I still get a little adrenalin thrill

This is the second time you've mentioned this so I'll ask. What are the signs of an obvious cruising toilet? Everyone's tapping their toes?

I was way too slow - should have refreshed before posting.

Thanks!

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Phlosphr

I've got to ask: In this day and age AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases are certainly not passe, they are very much alive and well. Did you just think you would not get them? Or did you somehow think everything would be ok?

I do look back and kind of thank whatever's out there that my stupidity didn't catch up with me. It wasn't that I thought I was invincible. It was just that I didn't think at all.

Originally Posted by Billdo

In the case or oral or manual sex, how is it determined which of the participants will be in which role (the jacked off or the jacker off, for instance)? Does the manner of approach have anything to do with it? Do the actions of Sen. Craig provide any suggestion of the act he was likely soliciting?

What are the mechanics of the actual hook-up? I presume it would usually be within a stall, but how does that work?

It was often under the stall, actually. One of us would kneel down and put our equipment under the stall wall, if there wasn't an actual glory-hole. One of the reasons I stopped doing this was because I'd gotten too fat to manage the agility required. As to who did what, that really isn't quite as big a matter as some people seem to think. Outside of anal sex, there's not a lot of pickiness among gay men (out or not) as to who get blown and who blows, or who gets jacked and who jacks. And anal sex is rare in these cases, so...the guy I topped the one time actually came to me with the condoms, so he was offering to bottom.

[Bricker]

I have some commentary on the legal issues, and in fact have defended several public lewdness/disorderly conduct/solicitation type cases arising from conduct in restrooms. I don't wish to hijack this thread with that discussion unless there's general consensus to the contrary, though, since the focus here seems to be more a how-does-the-whole-thing-work...

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by samm

This is the second time you've mentioned this so I'll ask. What are the signs of an obvious cruising toilet? Everyone's tapping their toes?

Post #33.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Bricker

I have some commentary on the legal issues, and in fact have defended several public lewdness/disorderly conduct/solicitation type cases arising from conduct in restrooms. I don't wish to hijack this thread with that discussion unless there's general consensus to the contrary, though, since the focus here seems to be more a how-does-the-whole-thing-work...

Could you post it in the Pit thread, then? I don't see the need to open yet another thread on this subject.

[Bearflag70]

I wonder if these are illegal bathroom cruising signals

[Omega Glory]

How'd you get started? By which I mean: how'd you know to go to public restrooms for sex in the first place, and how did you learn the signals?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Omega Glory

How'd you get started? By which I mean: how'd you know to go to public restrooms for sex in the first place, and how did you learn the signals?

God, I don't even remember. I think the first one I actually started going to was at a mall in my hometown. It was a restroom with a coin-op door, and I think I went in first purely because I had to use the restroom. About partway through, I realized that THINGS WERE GOING ON! And I wanted in!

I was 14.

[susan]

I have to say that in decades of public restroom use, I have never touched another person's foot with mine, reached under a stall (except to pass a roll of paper), etc. To me these would clear signals of Something Out Of The Ordinary whether I knew to interpret them as sexual or not. It just isn't done, and I assume this is even more true in men's rooms.

[panache45]

Originally Posted by jayjay

One of the reasons I stopped doing this was because I'd gotten too fat to manage the agility required.

Another former restroom player here. Yeah, that was probably a factor in my stopping as well. You've gotta be really limber for some of the positions you find yourself in . . . lots of squatting, hard on the knees . . . especially if you're like me, the suckee rather than the sucker. If the discomfort outweighs the reward, it's simply not worth it. Of course, all that's on your mind is the reward; you don't realize all the discomfort till you try to get up afterwards. Plus, of course, as we age our priorities change, and quick sex no longer has the allure it had 30 years ago.

Regarding diseases: My wild days were already winding down when AIDS reared its ugly head, and it would have been unthinkable to use a condom. Condoms were for straight people who didn't want to get pregnant. Even the classic STDs were no more trouble than a trip to the free clinic, though I believe herpes was starting to go around at that time. I, for one, never had an STD . . . definitely one of the lucky ones (well, being the suckee had something to do with that).

[panache45]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

I have to say that in decades of public restroom use, I have never touched another person's foot with mine, reached under a stall (except to pass a roll of paper), etc. To me these would clear signals of Something Out Of The Ordinary whether I knew to interpret them as sexual or not. It just isn't done, and I assume this is even more true in men's rooms.

In the years (decades) since I stopped my public fun, I've occasionally gotten unprovoked signals from someone in the next stall, and I concentrate real hard on not moving anything and not making a sound. I don't have anything against guys who still do these things, but it's just not my thing anymore.

What does bother me, though, is when the guy in the next stall is talking on his cell phone. This seems to violate some profound Law of Nature.

[Larry Borgia]

Well, now if I'm ever in a public restroom and hear tapping, I'll just say "It's not my thing, Senator."

[A.R. Cane]

I can attest to jayjay's and panache45's veracity. I'm not gay, but I was a trucker for 24 years. Truck stops and interstate rest areas are popular spots for gay trolling. I've been 'flirted' w/ any number of times. It's usually subtle and difficult to explain, but you normally recognize it when you see it. In truck stop men's rooms, it's common to see graffiti giving a date and time, along w/ a CB channel and CB "handle", accompanied by a brief description of the desires or services available. As I said, I did not indulge and when approached, usually just ignored the overature, which was sufficient to discourage any further attempts.
The thrill of having sex in a public place, inspired by the risk of discovery, is not uncommon among heterosexuals. Why would homosexuals not have similar desires?

[DrDeth]

I posted this in the other (PIT) thread: (I had no doubt that Craig was cruising) But why should that be illegal and why do the police need to waste my tax dollars setting up stings for it? I mean- if I smile in a certain way, send a drink down through the bartender, and ask "How yew doin'?" to a woman, those are generally recognized signals for a one-night stand, but would I be arrested? No, but only because I am going for casual sex with someone of the opposite sex.

Now, yes, if two people (of whatever sex) are actually having sex in a public restroom, I have no problem at all with the police breaking it up. But I should imagine that sometimes a gay "meet" in a restroom is followed by casual sex outside somewhere more private?

[Patty O'Furniture]

Originally Posted by Omega Glory

How'd you get started? By which I mean: how'd you know to go to public restrooms for sex in the first place, and how did you learn the signals?

It's one of the components of GAYDAR. You can just sense the cruising areas and any guys who are there cruising stick out like a sore thumb.

Oh, that's not a thumb?

[A.R. Cane]

Originally Posted by Patty O'Furniture

It's one of the components of GAYDAR. You can just sense the cruising areas and any guys who are there cruising stick out like a sore thumb.

Oh, that's not a thumb?

Cute