… and I’d like a little input from the group as to what I should do and prepare.
He is not ill, but he is 74 years old, and he’s getting very aware of his own mortality, particuarly since his wife (my mother) died in '06. So he wants to talk about.
Dad is a good man but not sophisticated; he has basically a 3rd grade education. (He went further in school than that, but it was a rural Mississippi school in the '30s & '40s). Mostly he says that he wants to make sure all of his children know what he expects after his death, but he’s asking me for some help in making that happen.
I know he has a will of sorts, but it was written while my mother was still alive. he plans to leave the house he lives in to all 8 of his children as a unit; to me this seems fraught with peril. Also, he does not have a living will, which seems equally fraught with peril.
Also, am I being a controlling jerk to not want my stepdaughter in the room for this conversation? They have a grandfather/granddaughter relationship, but I think that I, currently, know her a lot better than he does. The prospect of being in the room for this conversation has her upset, but given that he’s asked her to come along, she feels obliged to. But, contrariwse, if I tell her to stay home, she’s likely to do that. Part of me thinks this something she should not be put through; part of me thinks it is part of adulthood; and all of me thinks she should be more assertive when it comes to male figures in her life, though, obviously, I cannot force that change upon her.
There are lawyers who specialize in estate planning. They are expensive, but the good ones are worth it.
I agree with you on both counts. An estate planner might be able to suggest an arrangement that will simplify matters.
No, you are a good father who wants to spare his daughter the stress that this conversation will probably bring. However, I think it would do her good to observe the conversation. Someday, she may need to help you with your estate planning!
I’d suggest he redo his will as a living will with clear commands for his medical care in the case of debilitating or terminal illness. Eight kids aren’t likely to agree on any decision regarding Dad. Which brings me to the house. He should declare an executor and direct them to sell the house at fair market value, with the proceeds split eight ways. If one or more of the children wish to keep the house, they can buy it from the estate at said fair market value.
If he has life insurance, annuities, IRA’s, even bank accounts, have him name beneficiaries for all of these (all eight children is fine). If there are no beneficiaries, the assets go into probate, which just makes things more difficult and requires taxes (or fees) be paid.
I wouldn’t bother with an estate attorney unless his assets are pretty substantial or involve things like businesses.
How old is the kid? I personally don’t think anyone above the age of 12 is too young to hear someone making responsible decisions about their money and life. Life and death are universal. It doesn’t have to be a morbid discussion.
In addition to a will, I would suggest a living will, too. Have him express his desire for medical care NOW. Also have him grant you power of attorney for medical care as well.
If he wants to start giving things away before his death, that simplifies matters. They don’t become part of the estate and get tied up in probate, etc.
But by all means, get an attorney involved for the will, power of attorney, living will etc. Get them done right.
If you don’t want to get a lawyer as recommended above, you might want to check out the DoItYourself documents on Nolo press. Your local library may have book versions.
A lot depends on the state you live in. In California we have painful probate, so many people have trusts. I didn’t find the attorney all that expensive, and it was well worth it, since there all sorts of details and wording there would be no way someone new to the area would know.
When my parents first moved to California, my father’s estate planning method was for me to fly out and get to the safety deposit box before anyone knew. :rolleyes: Luckily he and my mother took a class at a community college, and did it right, which has averted several disasters already. Be grateful that your father wants to talk about it.
The medical stuff is orthogonal to the financial stuff, but in my experience gets handled at the same time.
Skald, this is really not a conversation your dad should be having with you and his granddaughter, but with a competent probate or elder care lawyer. They are not that expensive and well worth the money to avoid problems that will, I promise, appear later on. Your dad needs a will (a will or final testament is a completely different document from a “living will”), a healthcare power of attorney (or “advance directive” or (ugh) “living will”) specifying what actions he wants taken if he becomes incapacitated (i.e., feeding tubes or not, heroic measures or not), and a springing power of attorney so someone can take care of his financial affairs, etc. if he should become incapacitated. After he becomes incapacitated is too late to get these things done, so now, when he is healthy and in his right mind is the perfect time to do so.
The lawyer can tell him the advantages and disadvantages of various estate planning strategies. Without a spouse or a the powers of attorney, his children will get to decide his healthcare and other issues as a committee and everyone knows nothing will ever get done that way, particularly not what your dad intended because each child will have a different idea of what dad had in mind. You can help your dad by telling him he needs a good lawyer to ensure that what he wants done gets done and by making an appointment for him. Neither you or your daughter should be at the appointment, although your dad may certainly share the outcomes with you if he chooses.
IAAL but I am not your lawyer or your dad’s lawyer or anyone else’s lawyer and do not know you or represent you or anyone else. I am probably not even licensed to practice in your state, whatever that is, and your state laws may well differ from the laws of the state in which I am licensed. This is not legal advice, just common sense from an anonymous poster on a message board.
Good luck.
N.B. I would stay FAR away from do-it-yourself legal documents. I’ve had too many clients trying to undo such things. Get it done right the first time. Get a competent lawyer. Just my two cents.
You might want to see a professional (lawyer or acct) who specializes in estate planning. Attorneys are not “one size fits all” tools and someone up on the latest laws and regulations can avoid massive problems.
As a an aside the “giving the house to all 8 kids” idea is an insane notion and a ticking time bomb of conflict. Sell the damn thing and distribute the proceeds or do anything other than make it a problem that 8 people will have to figure out how to cooperate on.
Ummm…how could it not be a morbid discussion? It’s about someone dying.
On topic, I agree with those that say to get a lawyer. My parents did it, it didn’t take too long and wasn’t too expensive, and now they know it’s been done correctly. (And, I didn’t have to be around when they were doing it, and I don’t even know what it says, and that’s fine with me. I don’t even want to think about it, I just want to know that they’ve laid out what they wanted.)
I agree with legalsnugs. I also really want to emphasize this point. Every time I have seen one of these things, the result has been unhappy. By unhappy I mean that it has cost the estate tons of money to get things figured out. Also states may vary on how technical things such as how witnesses are required, and who may be a witness. You don’t want to the draftsman of the will because that may open up a host of issues.
It is good to discuss these things and once done for your dad to sit down and tell you or whoever the executor/executrix where the will is and what the gist of it is. It might be good for him to sit everyone down and have the discussion just to head off problems between the siblings. There is something about a will that can make things so much worse in the family.
In my experience, you don’t dwell on the death aspect aside from the designation of a “plug puller” and the obvious fact the person is going to die, just like everyone else. The discussion doesn’t have to be* unwholesomely gloomy*. It’s a fact of life and should be treated as such. The discussion leans toward money and things, for the most part.
I agree with those above who are saying “get thee to a lawyer”.
Thing is, you tell us your dad is not particularly sophisticated, is quite elderly & is asking (and so I assume relying) on you for advice.
I presume that you, along with others, are a beneficiary under whatever will he eventually draws up. You say he had 8 children, meaning that there are a lot of possible interests.
Unfortunately, this creates the possible appearance of a conflict of interest. The other beneficiaries, after he has passed on, may raise the argument that they did not get a fair shake, because you were advising your dad to give you/your kids the better deal (even though it isn’t even remotely true).
Do your future self a favour and at least run whatever you do by a lawyer dealing only with your dad (that is not reporting to you but to him), so in the future you can truthfully say that he got independent legal advice.
Another Doper chiming in on the “hire a lawyer” theme.
However, something that does merit family discussion is the “who gets what” issue, especially regarding things that have very little monetary value and are not going to contribute significantly to the worth of the estate.
You may not give a fig about Aunt Hannah’s majolica plate, but you may not realize that it’s hugely important to your brother or niece, for whom it has enormous sentimental value. My personal experience is that these things are best discussed one-on-one. Ask your dad if there are any things he wants to end up with a particular person. Ask your siblings (one at a time) if there is anything in particular that is important to them. I’m suggesting one-on-one conversations because a group discussion can be very uncomfortable and sort of ghoulish.
You might find out that EVERYONE wants that majolica plate, but then you have at least identified the items of contention and can plan on how it deal with them.
Ditto to what freckafree said (along with your dad getting a lawyer).
I went to an estate auction a few years back. The real property and bank accounts had been dealt with in a will, but nothing had been written down about the personal property. The kids (all adults, in their 40’s and 50’s) argued about the cribbage board, so everything ended up at the auction, and the kids bid against each other for the board and other memorabilia. It wasn’t a friendly bidding war at all. They’re probably still not speaking to each other.
I’d third going to a lawyer. And if he asks you to be his executor, make him sit down with all the kids and explain what the will entails. when the time comes, he may be gone, but you’re going to have to deal with your sibs for the rest of your life. Make sure they understand that these are his instructions, not your desires.
Except I COULD manipulate things so that I so offend my eldest brother that he is never willing to talk to me again. That way i get the practical effect of having murdered him without going to prison.
The problem with the house is that Dad believes that, since his children are all savd ('cept me) they should be able to deal with any conflicts as led by the Holy Spirit. He and I once argued about his life insurance policy, which he wanted to leave to one daughter in particular and have her distribute to everyone else.
going to a lawyer does two things - it helps to insulate you from allegations of undue influence, and (if you get a good estates lawyer), your dad will get good objective advice to steer him away from “I’ll just let the kids work it all out once I’m gone.”
I’m not an evil overlord anymore. I refuse to try to conquer the Earth until the economy improves. It’s just not sporting.
I was mostly kidding about my brother, of course, but if I were to do such a thing it’d be by making sure he missed out on every single personal property item he wanted. Similiarly, if I were to win the Powerball, I’d be tempted to invite all my siblings to a dinner in which they each received a cashier’s check fora million dollars, except for him. The others would probably feel bad and each give him a bit of their own new fortune to make up, but I’d have made my point.
All true, all true. If only my dad believed in lawyers.
