Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day'

[XT]

In light of the threads on the Mosque at Ground Zero controversy, I haven’t seen anything on this, um, person’s plan to hold a…it’s hard for me to even credit this…a BOOK BURNING, on the anniversary of 9/11. Here is a CNN article discussing this from the perspective of a Muslim scholar.

The pastor, author of the book “Islam is of the Devil,” is using the burning to urge American Christians to “stand up” to what he describes as a monolithic Muslim threat. A Facebook page for the event has accrued thousands of “likes” and Jones has said people have been mailing him Qurans to burn.

As a Muslim scholar, an adherent of one of the Abrahamic faiths – Judaism, Christianity and Islam – and as someone committed to interfaith understanding, I urge Jones to cancel this event. Not only are the actions of Jones contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, but they are also against the ideals of the American Founding Fathers.

For debate I suppose, first off is…WTF? Book burnings in the US? That’s…surreal. Oh, I realize it has happened in the past (and even recently for all I know), but how can anyone think that this is something that matches the ideals of this country??

Secondly, what do you suppose the effect and impact of this (I’m trying hard not to use any demeaning terms to describe this guy)…this…person…will have on both US citizens who are Muslim or, worst yet, on Muslims in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq…etc??

While the US is reaching out to Pakistan and giving them more aid in their time of hardship and trouble with all the flooding…or aid, last I checked, than all the rest of the world combined…we are, basically spitting in their faces by burning their most holy book! When I say ‘we’, of course, that’s how THEY are going to see it…the same way this idiot (sorry, can’t help my self) sees a vast, monolithic Muslim world. As if they are all in lockstep, think the same, feel the same, act the same…they are going to see US the same way. Some idiot in Florida has a bonfire, and it’s going to be ‘America hates Muslims!’.

I’m hoping that I haven’t inflamed things too much…Mods, if you think this is more appropriate in the Pit, feel free to move it. I am hoping for a debate, but at the same time, this really pisses me off.

(apologies if there is already a thread on this…I didn’t see one, but I didn’t do a search either, just looked at thread titles).

-XT

[begbert2]

Somebody NEEDS to go there and start chucking bibles into the fire.

[XT]

In hindsight, letting my emotions get control. It’s no more right to burn bibles than to burn the quran. Now, beating the crap out of this pastor…

-XT

[qpw3141]

I just wish the idiots involved in this sort of nonsense realised what a victory their actions are for terrorists everywhere and the 9-11 perpetrators in particular.

[XT]

@qpw3141

I just wish the idiots involved in this sort of nonsense realised what a victory their actions are for terrorists everywhere and the 9-11 perpetrators in particular.

Yeah…me too. I just don’t understand why they can’t see their actions for the stupidity they are, or see the harm they are doing. Do they not understand that this could have serious repercussions for our troops, if nothing else? Or for our civilians giving aid in Pakistan?? Do they not see that people could be killed over their silly, stupid, pointless and un-American gestures???

-XT

[lieu]

… and Jefferson’s Koran, the one housed in our Library of Congress, I wonder if he would add that to the incendiary display.

[Oakminster]

@xtisme

Secondly, what do you suppose the effect and impact of this (I’m trying hard not to use any demeaning terms to describe this guy)…this…person…will have on both US citizens who are Muslim or, worst yet, on Muslims in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq…etc??

You’re worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don’t expect me to, because I ain’t gonna.

[Gyrate]

I really need to go into the book business and put out loads of books that really offend people. Imagine how many of those Qurans they’re buying just so they can burn them.

And if I stock American flags too I can sell to the Middle East market after they hear about the Quran burning.

Profit!

[begbert2]

@xtisme

In hindsight, letting my emotions get control. It’s no more right to burn bibles than to burn the quran. Now, beating the crap out of this pastor…

-XT

It’s a “what’s good for the goose is what’s good for the gander” thing, as in “Burning holy books ain’t polite and see how you like it, m’kay?”

Not that they’d get the message - doubtlessly whatever frenzied mob is attracted to this thing would just try to beat the crap out of you.

[begbert2]

@Oakminster

You’re worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don’t expect me to, because I ain’t gonna.

The reason we’re not burning Korans isn’t because we’re worried about offending the (comparatively few) Muslim loons. It’s because only loons burn books.

Whereas drawing cartoons? Somebody get me a pencil.

and artistic ability

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Oakminster

You’re worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Yes. Because, shockingly enough, even in places where that happens, not all Muslims do those things. Nor do those Muslims who do, have views which could not be made more radical. Yes, I am worried about making a situation worse. Why the hell aren’t you? Have you given up?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech.

Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don’t expect me to, because I ain’t gonna.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, because the “they need to be clubbed over the head” debate technique always works. I’m sure those who burn the U.S. flag, or hold massive demonstrations calling for death, say much the same thing. And, of course, your response to those events was to mellow your views and hold out your arms in open friendship upon having those ideas clubbed over your head.

Wasn’t it?

[Grumman]

@Revenant_Threshold

Yes, because the “they need to be clubbed over the head” debate technique always works. I’m sure those who burn the U.S. flag, or hold massive demonstrations calling for death, say much the same thing.

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. Just because a bunch of psychos making death threats about people drawing Mohammed are saying the same thing as a bunch of people burning books does not mean both claims are equally valid.

As long as these guys are the owners of the books they are burning and they aren’t presenting a fire risk, I say go for it.

[qpw3141]

@Grumman

@Revenant_Threshold

Yes, because the “they need to be clubbed over the head” debate technique always works. I’m sure those who burn the U.S. flag, or hold massive demonstrations calling for death, say much the same thing.

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. Just because a bunch of psychos making death threats about people drawing Mohammed are saying the same thing as a bunch of people burning books does not mean both claims are equally valid.

Quite. People who draw cartoons of Mohammad are trying to piss off Muslims.

Whereas people burning the Qur’an are just trying to piss off Muslims.

No, wait …

[begbert2]

@Grumman

As long as these guys are the owners of the books they are burning and they aren’t presenting a fire risk, I say go for it.

And similarly it should be fine for me to burn bibles, too, I presume. At the very least the fellows burning the Korans should have no cause for complaint about my peaceful little protest.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Grumman

@Revenant_Threshold

Yes, because the “they need to be clubbed over the head” debate technique always works. I’m sure those who burn the U.S. flag, or hold massive demonstrations calling for death, say much the same thing.

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. Just because a bunch of psychos making death threats about people drawing Mohammed are saying the same thing as a bunch of people burning books does not mean both claims are equally valid.

But i’m not calling equivalency of severity. I’m calling equivalency of idea. The point is the exact same one - “we can persuade the other side we are serious, by saying or doing these offensive or insulting or threatening things”.

I’d consider burning the U.S. flag to be pretty much equivalent. I would consider demonstrations (massive or otherwise) calling for death much worse. But, either way, you do not get points for being a slightly nicer bastard. And the point of view that leads to these kinds of actions is almost ludicrously stupid, and unfortunetly cyclic.

[nolonger_lurking]

@Oakminster

You’re worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don’t expect me to, because I ain’t gonna.

I think this is a terrible way of thinking about other people in general. Nobody is advocating that the US government shut down the book burning as a threat to national security, just that the people who are pissed off about the actions of radical Muslims examine A) how their actions resemble those of the radical Muslims, and B) how their actions empower those same radicals at the expense of the US and of people in Muslim countries who would rather work with us than against us.

Secondly, nobody is asking you to “live under Islamic law.” If you are want to burn a Koran because you are cold, or because you love fire - go for it! In fact, if you live in a country with anti-blasphemy laws and want to burn a Koran as civil disobedience, I’ll unenthusiastically support you. If your hypothetical son keeps sneaking Korans into the house and picking them out of the trash when you throw them away, I’ll call you a dick while supporting your right to burn it. But what is allowed is not compulsory, or even a good idea. This is an action that is aimed directly at causing hurt and anger. It would be pointless for them to burn Korans in a private church ceremony, while praying for the souls of the unenlightened. The benefit here is the big “Fuck em” to people who anger and scare members of the Dove World Outreach Center.

I learned a several years ago (but later than I’d care to admit) that what is right (correct) or a right can also be the wrong thing to say or do. You are sadly mistaken if you think that a “Fuck em” will convince them of the value of free speech. Instead of sharia law, I’d try this one:

@Kurt Vonnegut

There’s only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you’ve got to be kind.

[ethansiegel]

The church responsible for this is in the town I lived in for 5 years: Gainesville, FL.

They also brand themselves as a world outreach center. It’s a scary place, to say the least.

They have a website if you actually want to see the crazy in action: http://www.doveworld.org/

[qpw3141]

Of course, one important point is that burning books always makes the burners look like ranting, raving, fools.

The only people who will be impressed - one way or the other - are other ranting, raving, fools.

[begbert2]

@qpw3141

Of course, one important point is that burning books always makes the burners look like ranting, raving, fools.

The only people who will be impressed - one way or the other - are other ranting, raving, fools.

Yeah, the Godwins did kind of ruin that for everyone, didn’t they?

[XT]

@begbert2

It’s a “what’s good for the goose is what’s good for the gander” thing, as in “Burning holy books ain’t polite and see how you like it, m’kay?”

Oh, I get it, and part of me agrees a lot (my first reply was I’d bring the gas if you brought the munchies). It’s just the thought of burning books in American that hinks me out a bit…doesn’t matter what the book was.

You are right though, they wouldn’t get it…they would scream and yell and throw a fit if you burned a truck load of bibles.

-XT