Burning books in the US...'Burn Quran Day'

[XT]

In light of the threads on the Mosque at Ground Zero controversy, I haven't seen anything on this, um, person's plan to hold a...it's hard for me to even credit this...a BOOK BURNING, on the anniversary of 9/11. Here is a CNN article discussing this from the perspective of a Muslim scholar.

The pastor, author of the book "Islam is of the Devil," is using the burning to urge American Christians to "stand up" to what he describes as a monolithic Muslim threat. A Facebook page for the event has accrued thousands of "likes" and Jones has said people have been mailing him Qurans to burn.

As a Muslim scholar, an adherent of one of the Abrahamic faiths -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam -- and as someone committed to interfaith understanding, I urge Jones to cancel this event. Not only are the actions of Jones contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, but they are also against the ideals of the American Founding Fathers.

For debate I suppose, first off is...WTF? Book burnings in the US? That's...surreal. Oh, I realize it has happened in the past (and even recently for all I know), but how can anyone think that this is something that matches the ideals of this country??

Secondly, what do you suppose the effect and impact of this (I'm trying hard not to use any demeaning terms to describe this guy)...this...person....will have on both US citizens who are Muslim or, worst yet, on Muslims in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq...etc??

While the US is reaching out to Pakistan and giving them more aid in their time of hardship and trouble with all the flooding...or aid, last I checked, than all the rest of the world combined...we are, basically spitting in their faces by burning their most holy book! When I say 'we', of course, that's how THEY are going to see it...the same way this idiot (sorry, can't help my self) sees a vast, monolithic Muslim world. As if they are all in lockstep, think the same, feel the same, act the same...they are going to see US the same way. Some idiot in Florida has a bonfire, and it's going to be 'America hates Muslims!'.

I'm hoping that I haven't inflamed things too much...Mods, if you think this is more appropriate in the Pit, feel free to move it. I am hoping for a debate, but at the same time, this really pisses me off.

(apologies if there is already a thread on this....I didn't see one, but I didn't do a search either, just looked at thread titles).

-XT

[begbert2]

Somebody NEEDS to go there and start chucking bibles into the fire.

[XT]

In hindsight, letting my emotions get control. It's no more right to burn bibles than to burn the quran. Now, beating the crap out of this pastor...

-XT

[qpw3141]

I just wish the idiots involved in this sort of nonsense realised what a victory their actions are for terrorists everywhere and the 9-11 perpetrators in particular.

[XT]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

I just wish the idiots involved in this sort of nonsense realised what a victory their actions are for terrorists everywhere and the 9-11 perpetrators in particular.

Yeah...me too. I just don't understand why they can't see their actions for the stupidity they are, or see the harm they are doing. Do they not understand that this could have serious repercussions for our troops, if nothing else? Or for our civilians giving aid in Pakistan?? Do they not see that people could be killed over their silly, stupid, pointless and un-American gestures???

-XT

[lieu]

... and Jefferson's Koran, the one housed in our Library of Congress, I wonder if he would add that to the incendiary display.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by xtisme

Secondly, what do you suppose the effect and impact of this (I'm trying hard not to use any demeaning terms to describe this guy)...this...person....will have on both US citizens who are Muslim or, worst yet, on Muslims in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq...etc??

You're worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don't expect me to, because I ain't gonna.

[Gyrate]

I really need to go into the book business and put out loads of books that really offend people. Imagine how many of those Qurans they're buying just so they can burn them.

And if I stock American flags too I can sell to the Middle East market after they hear about the Quran burning.

Profit!

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by xtisme

In hindsight, letting my emotions get control. It's no more right to burn bibles than to burn the quran. Now, beating the crap out of this pastor...

-XT

It's a "what's good for the goose is what's good for the gander" thing, as in "Burning holy books ain't polite and see how you like it, m'kay?"

Not that they'd get the message - doubtlessly whatever frenzied mob is attracted to this thing would just try to beat the crap out of you.

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

You're worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don't expect me to, because I ain't gonna.

The reason we're not burning Korans isn't because we're worried about offending the (comparatively few) Muslim loons. It's because only loons burn books.

Whereas drawing cartoons? Somebody get me a pencil.

and artistic ability

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

You're worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Yes. Because, shockingly enough, even in places where that happens, not all Muslims do those things. Nor do those Muslims who do, have views which could not be made more radical. Yes, I am worried about making a situation worse. Why the hell aren't you? Have you given up?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech.

Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don't expect me to, because I ain't gonna.[/quote] Yes, because the "they need to be clubbed over the head" debate technique always works. I'm sure those who burn the U.S. flag, or hold massive demonstrations calling for death, say much the same thing. And, of course, your response to those events was to mellow your views and hold out your arms in open friendship upon having those ideas clubbed over your head.

Wasn't it?

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold

Yes, because the "they need to be clubbed over the head" debate technique always works. I'm sure those who burn the U.S. flag, or hold massive demonstrations calling for death, say much the same thing.

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. Just because a bunch of psychos making death threats about people drawing Mohammed are saying the same thing as a bunch of people burning books does not mean both claims are equally valid.

As long as these guys are the owners of the books they are burning and they aren't presenting a fire risk, I say go for it.

[qpw3141]

Originally Posted by Grumman

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. Just because a bunch of psychos making death threats about people drawing Mohammed are saying the same thing as a bunch of people burning books does not mean both claims are equally valid.

Quite. People who draw cartoons of Mohammad are trying to piss off Muslims.

Whereas people burning the Qur'an are just trying to piss off Muslims.

No, wait ...

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Grumman

As long as these guys are the owners of the books they are burning and they aren't presenting a fire risk, I say go for it.

And similarly it should be fine for me to burn bibles, too, I presume. At the very least the fellows burning the Korans should have no cause for complaint about my peaceful little protest.

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Grumman

This is the Golden Mean fallacy. Just because a bunch of psychos making death threats about people drawing Mohammed are saying the same thing as a bunch of people burning books does not mean both claims are equally valid.

But i'm not calling equivalency of severity. I'm calling equivalency of idea. The point is the exact same one - "we can persuade the other side we are serious, by saying or doing these offensive or insulting or threatening things".

I'd consider burning the U.S. flag to be pretty much equivalent. I would consider demonstrations (massive or otherwise) calling for death much worse. But, either way, you do not get points for being a slightly nicer bastard. And the point of view that leads to these kinds of actions is almost ludicrously stupid, and unfortunetly cyclic.

[nolonger lurking]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

You're worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don't expect me to, because I ain't gonna.

I think this is a terrible way of thinking about other people in general. Nobody is advocating that the US government shut down the book burning as a threat to national security, just that the people who are pissed off about the actions of radical Muslims examine A) how their actions resemble those of the radical Muslims, and B) how their actions empower those same radicals at the expense of the US and of people in Muslim countries who would rather work with us than against us.

Secondly, nobody is asking you to "live under Islamic law." If you are want to burn a Koran because you are cold, or because you love fire - go for it! In fact, if you live in a country with anti-blasphemy laws and want to burn a Koran as civil disobedience, I'll unenthusiastically support you. If your hypothetical son keeps sneaking Korans into the house and picking them out of the trash when you throw them away, I'll call you a dick while supporting your right to burn it. But what is allowed is not compulsory, or even a good idea. This is an action that is aimed directly at causing hurt and anger. It would be pointless for them to burn Korans in a private church ceremony, while praying for the souls of the unenlightened. The benefit here is the big "Fuck em" to people who anger and scare members of the Dove World Outreach Center.

I learned a several years ago (but later than I'd care to admit) that what is right (correct) or a right can also be the wrong thing to say or do. You are sadly mistaken if you think that a "Fuck em" will convince them of the value of free speech. Instead of sharia law, I'd try this one:

Originally Posted by Kurt Vonnegut

There's only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you've got to be kind.

[ethansiegel]

The church responsible for this is in the town I lived in for 5 years: Gainesville, FL.

They also brand themselves as a world outreach center. It's a scary place, to say the least.

They have a website if you actually want to see the crazy in action: http://www.doveworld.org/

[qpw3141]

Of course, one important point is that burning books always makes the burners look like ranting, raving, fools.

The only people who will be impressed - one way or the other - are other ranting, raving, fools.

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by qpw3141

Of course, one important point is that burning books always makes the burners look like ranting, raving, fools.

The only people who will be impressed - one way or the other - are other ranting, raving, fools.

Yeah, the Godwins did kind of ruin that for everyone, didn't they?

[XT]

Originally Posted by begbert2

It's a "what's good for the goose is what's good for the gander" thing, as in "Burning holy books ain't polite and see how you like it, m'kay?"

Oh, I get it, and part of me agrees a lot (my first reply was I'd bring the gas if you brought the munchies). It's just the thought of burning books in American that hinks me out a bit...doesn't matter what the book was.

You are right though, they wouldn't get it...they would scream and yell and throw a fit if you burned a truck load of bibles.

-XT

[John Mace]

A few things...

Can we have a link to a news article about this, and not an editorial?

While I think burning the Koran is stupid, it isn't un-American. Burning something in protest is very American. What is un-American is when the government burns books in order to keep people from reading them.

Interestingly, this group has "Outreach" as part of its name. I stopped buying irony meters a long time ago-- they just don't last very long.

[El_Kabong]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don't expect me to, because I ain't gonna.

Don't forget waving your dick in their faces. Wouldn't want to leave that out.

[qpw3141]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Interestingly, this group has "Outreach" as part of its name. I stopped buying irony meters a long time ago-- they just don't last very long.

You need to get ones with fast acting overload protection.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by xtisme

For debate I suppose, first off is...WTF? Book burnings in the US? That's...surreal. Oh, I realize it has happened in the past (and even recently for all I know), but how can anyone think that this is something that matches the ideals of this country??

I have on occasion seen/read news stories about Christian Coalition/Moral Majority types doing that sort of thing over the years; burning or otherwise destroying books, music, games, movies. And I was told to do so as a child, back when I was being taught to be a "good Christian".

[XT]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Can we have a link to a news article about this, and not an editorial?

Sure, John, though you could Google them up yourself. At any rate, I found this and this (ironically saying that they can't get a permit to do the burning). There here is the facebook page they mentioned.

There are a lot of other links on Google about this, but mainly they seem to be opinion pieces.

While I think burning the Koran is stupid, it isn't un-American. Burning something in protest is very American. What is un-American is when the government burns books in order to keep people from reading them.

Yeah, I guess you are right. It just strikes me as odd that American's would burn books. It seems so anti-American to me for some reason.

-XT

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by xtisme

Yeah, I guess you are right. It just strikes me as odd that American's would burn books. It seems so anti-American to me for some reason.

I expect it's because you've heard the propaganda about how tolerant America is so often that you've come to believe it.

[XT]

I guess I have. But then, you've heard the propaganda about how evil America is that you've come to believe that as well. Based on how little traction this event is getting outside of the loony religious sectors, I'd say that my take is closer to reality than yours is. You notice they were denied a permit to burn the books, and that the local community is up in arms?

-XT

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by begbert2

Somebody NEEDS to go there and start chucking bibles into the fire.

As I understand it, Muslims do not react to desecrations of the Koran in at all the same way as Christians would react to desecrations of the Bible. Christians don't much mind that much -- burn one Bible, there are still plenty of copies in the world. Muslims may purport to reject all forms of idolatry, but any copy of the Koran (at least, in the original Arabic -- translations are merely "commentaries") is a sacred object to them and -- I make no exaggeration -- is almost identified with God. Destroying or desecrating it is a very, very big deal.

From a review of Destiny Disrupted: A History of the World Through Islamic Eyes, by Tamim Ansary:

The author gives commendable attention to the scientific and intellectual evolution of Abbasid times. This evolution was never entirely divorced from theology, which in the case of Islam meant close attention to the text and ontological status of the Koran. To put a complicated matter very briefly, the period began with an epistemologically optimistic appropriation of Aristotelianism; pure reason and empirical observation were believed capable of producing a high degree of reliable knowledge. This optimism was increasingly called into question by controversy over the interpretation of scripture, notably the issue of the degree to which the statements of the Koran can be applied analogically to address new situations. The dispute is sometimes formulated as the question whether the Koran is Allah's substance or one of his creatures. The prevailing conclusion was that the Koran was “uncreated,” and so had a higher ontological status than any analysis of it. (Compared to their Muslim analogues, the strictest Christian literalists view the Bible as a collection of helpful hints.) The tradition of philosophical enquiry ended with a skepticism of the power of reason that David Hume might envy. The motive, however, was more like that of Immanuel Kant: to make room for faith by restricting the scope of intellectual critique.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

As I understand it, Muslims do not react to desecrations of the Koran in at all the same way as Christians would react to desecrations of the Bible. Christians don't much mind that much -- burn one Bible, there are still plenty of copies in the world. Muslims may purport to reject all forms of idolatry, but any copy of the Koran (at least, in the original Arabic -- translations are merely "commentaries") is a sacred object to them and -- I make no exaggeration -- is almost identified with God. Destroying or desecrating it is a very, very big deal.

Them believing such horseshit does not validate it. It's still a big pile of stinky stuff. Nobody that doesn't live in an Islamic state has any obligation to observe the rules of that faith.

Fuck Mohammed. I think he was a pervert, and probably fucked pigs.

Fuck the Koran. It's just a book. Paper, ink, bindings.

Fuck Allah. He doesn't exist anyway.

Fuck Islam. They don't rule the world. People that disagree with their religion have every right to do so.

[Revenant Threshold]

Having the right to do something doesn't mean that it is necessarily a wise idea to do so.

Being annoyed by an offense, and deciding that the best course of action to stop offenses is to offend back, is the very opposite of wise. It's cognitive dissonance in rather stark action.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

This sounds bad on the surface, but if you really think about it, all they'd be doing is giving money to Islamic book publishers. Where are they going to get the Qur'ans? They're going to have to buy them to burn them. Ka-ching for the Muslim publishing companies (and maybe a few Barnes & Noble outlets).

While the words "book burning" sound bad, they're only really insidious when they involve trying to take books away from people, restrict access to them or remove them from the public sphere. People burning their own property is of no real concern to anybody (except maybe the fire Department). If a few knuckleheads want to burn their own money for a protest that will have no really affect on anyone else, confiscate any books from anyone who doesn't want a book confiscated or infringe on anyone else's rights, then this is stupid and pointless, but basically harmless and within the bounds of free speech.

[Czarcasm]

We need people to mail in these or the equivalent for the bonfire, then publicize their Bible-burning afterward.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

You're worried about offending Muslims in places they routinely burn the U.S. flag, and held massive demonstrations calling for the death of cartoonists?

Fuck em. Muslims need to be clubbed over the head with the notion that free speech is free speech. Yes, we can and will draw cartoons about your prophet. Yes, we can and will burn the Koran, or any other damn book we feel like. You wanna live under Islamic law? Fine. Don't expect me to, because I ain't gonna.

All Muslims are anti-free speech? All Muslims need to be insulted for the offenses of a few?

I don't care about the book burning as I posted above, but this idea that they all deserve to be insulted is stupid.

Who gives a fuck about someone burning a flag, by the way?

[XT]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

While the words "book burning" sound bad, they're only really insidious when they involve trying to take books away from people, restrict access to them or remove them from the public sphere. People burning their own property is of no real concern to anybody (except maybe the fire Department). If a few knuckleheads want to burn their own money for a protest that will have no really affect on anyone else, confiscate any books from anyone who doesn't want a book confiscated or infringe on anyone else's rights, then this is stupid and pointless, but basically harmless and within the bounds of free speech.

Yeah, I can see that. Except that I don't think that's how it would be viewed in other country's. Granted, that's really their problem I suppose, but it's going to have a negative impact on places like Pakistan and Afghanistan, especially, at least if the article I linked to in the OP is to be believed. Something as simple as burning your own property could actually cost lives, and will certainly further cost us good will in the region...and at a time when we had the potential to actually start chipping away at the bad will we've managed to generate in the last few decades (especially in the last decade).

-XT

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold

Having the right to do something doesn't mean that it is necessarily a wise idea to do so.

Being annoyed by an offense, and deciding that the best course of action to stop offenses is to offend back, is the very opposite of wise. It's cognitive dissonance in rather stark action.

Frankly, burning Korans is tacky. Not the kind of thing I would do. Not the kind of thing I would recommend doing. But it is certainly lawful expression. As is burning the flag.

However, we (ie, all freedom loving people) can't give an inch to these fuckers. If they see any signs of progress in forcing others to follow their religious rules, they'll redouble their efforts to worm that shit into law anyway they can. Zero tolerance for that crap. Islam is not special. Islam gets no special protection not afforded to every other reliegion...Including the Church of Oak, which I just formed. Our most holy tradition is that SEC Football is a religious experience, and no other programming should ever be shown opposite an SEC football game, because that is a sin against Bear Bryant, the Holy Father of the Wishbone. Amen.

All you blasphemers out there better repent. Or the Bear gonna come whup yo ass.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Them believing such horseshit does not validate it. It's still a big pile of stinky stuff. Nobody that doesn't live in an Islamic state has any obligation to observe the rules of that faith.

Fuck Mohammed. I think he was a pervert, and probably fucked pigs.

Fuck the Koran. It's just a book. Paper, ink, bindings.

Fuck Allah. He doesn't exist anyway.

Fuck Islam. They don't rule the world. People that disagree with their religion have every right to do so.

When did you turn into Der Trihs?

Who's saying that nobody has a right to disagree with their religion. There's a difference between disagreeing with a religion and going out of your way to deliberately insult everyone who believes in it.

[silenus]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

We need people to mail in these or the equivalent for the bonfire, then publicize their Bible-burning afterward.

You're devious. I like that.

[elucidator]

This does for stupid what eternity does for time.

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Frankly, burning Korans is tacky. Not the kind of thing I would do. Not the kind of thing I would recommend doing. But it is certainly lawful expression. As is burning the flag.

Something being lawful doesn't make it necessarily a good idea, either.

However, we (ie, all freedom loving people) can't give an inch to these fuckers. If they see any signs of progress in forcing others to follow their religious rules, they'll redouble their efforts to worm that shit into law anyway they can.

I see no reason to believe that your understanding of cause and effect in these situations is to be trusted. Your response to being offended is to go out and cause offense, and yet you expect others to act differently. Too, what sign of progress is being seen here? What inch has been given? That Korans are going unburned? You want to send your message, you have to tie it to an actual act. Not just a a general "they've got to learn, the bastards!".

Zero tolerance for that crap. Islam is not special.

Correct. But that works both ways. It deserves no special protection; it deserves no special scorn. Burning a Koran is like having one person insult you, then deciding the best course of action to get them to stop is to go and insult their entire family. It's moronic and counter-productive.

[Gagundathar]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

<snip>
...Including the Church of Oak, which I just formed. Our most holy tradition is that SEC Football is a religious experience, and no other programming should ever be shown opposite an SEC football game, because that is a sin against Bear Bryant, the Holy Father of the Wishbone. Amen.

All you blasphemers out there better repent. Or the Bear gonna come whup yo ass.

I am very interested in your belief system and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
You do have a newsletter don't you?
All good new religions need a newsletter.
How about a website?

Is it acceptable to watch ACC football, or is that against the will of Bear Bryant (pbuh)?

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Revenant Threshold

Your response to being offended is to go out and cause offense,

No. My response is to refuse to follow Islam's rules, and oppose any effort to grant them "special snowflake" status. I won't be burning any books this weekend.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Gagundathar

I am very interested in your belief system and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
You do have a newsletter don't you?
All good new religions need a newsletter.
How about a website?

Is it acceptable to watch ACC football, or is that against the will of Bear Bryant (pbuh)?

It is written that thou mayest watch the inferior football played by lesser conferences, but only to the extent that it heightens your appreciate of the sublime righteousness of all things SEC, and only so long as such inferior football is not shown at the same time as the Divine SEC Football. So sayeth the Prophet. So sayeth we all.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by silenus

You're devious. I like that.

Social sabotage should be left in the hands of trained professionals who understand that, if you can get your opponent to do most of your work for you, retaliation is next to impossible.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

No. My response is to refuse to follow Islam's rules, and oppose any effort to grant them "special snowflake" status. I won't be burning any books this weekend.

Who's telling you to follow Islam's rules or to give it any more respect than any other religion?

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by xtisme

Yeah, I guess you are right. It just strikes me as odd that American's would burn books. It seems so anti-American to me for some reason.

99% of the time when books are burned, it's a statement of intent/sympathy to censor; this is probably why it seems more anti-american than, say, burning a bra. Censorship is kind of a big deal in these parts.

Though Diogenes the Cynic is right; this isn't that kind of book burning. It's just some overzealous christians lowering themselves to the level of muslims that burn flags; purely and strictly a protest with none of the usual censorship overtones. And actually, I think it may have been the first example of 'protest' book burning that didn't have censorship overtones that I've heard of, come to think of it.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Who's telling you to follow Islam's rules or to give it any more respect than any other religion?

These people

[Gedd]

I hope this is exempt from Godwin's law because of the topic, but in all honesty the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this article was that when there were massive burnings of holy books back in the late 30's it didn't turn out well for anybody.

On another note I love this quote from one of the articles:

Gainesville Mayor Craig Lowe called the church “an embarrassment to our community”

Ouch.

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

No. My response is to refuse to follow Islam's rules, and oppose any effort to grant them "special snowflake" status. I won't be burning any books this weekend.

But you'll happily state "fuck em", and then go down a little list of all those things you think are worthy of a hearty "fuck"-ing. Your response is most certainly to treat Islam as having special snowflake status - just the other way, by insulting and offending beyond the norm. And by congratulating such ideas as being because Muslims need to have these ideas "clubbed over the head" with. If I recall correctly, you were one of the happy signers-up to the "draw Mohammed" day a while back (in fact, I went and had a look, and you were, with a little joke about drawing him fellating goats). Your response to being offended is to go out and cause offense. Your response to offensive ideas of greater severity (to which your complaint is not the poorness of the idea, but the tackiness of the idea) is to defend the notion, as if anyone here had brought up the idea that doing so was somehow not a right or not lawful over there.

I refuse to follow Islam's rules, by, well, simply not following the rules. As an added bonus, I don't cause offense which is likely to create even more offense in those who appear to be already pretty pissed, or those who aren't but who might well look at a plan for a group Koran burning, and look at those defending the idea, and think there might just well be something in all that hate.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

These people

Who are they, where are they, when was this picture taken, and what did the Fantastic Four do when they arrived?

[Gedd]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

These people

I thought I saw that same picture a few months ago, except the signs said things about Obama and healthcare. Are you sure that wasn't photoshopped?