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  #1  
Old 10-11-2010, 09:52 AM
Daddypants Daddypants is offline
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Is Glen Beck/Fox News responsible for this guy's attempted mass murder?

Here's the article from Media Matters. If we don't blame Ozzy and Metallica when heavy metal kids commit suicide, how can we blame Glen Beck/Fox News for what the crazy guy in the article tried to do?
I believe that popular culture can be the "tip of the iceberg" that pushes an unstable person over the edge. But, there is something else, deep in that person, that is the true cause.
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  #2  
Old 10-11-2010, 10:15 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Daddypants View Post
Here's the article from Media Matters. If we don't blame Ozzy and Metallica when heavy metal kids commit suicide, how can we blame Glen Beck/Fox News for what the crazy guy in the article tried to do?
That's not a good comparison. Ozzy got blamed for some suicides based on the lyrics for a song that was anti-alcohol. Other metal bands were falsely accused of secretly hiding evil messages in their songs through backmasking, a technique that could allegedly deliver messages directly to the subconsious of impressionable kids who did not even know they were hearing something sinister. It was a total fiction invented by paranoids based on people convincing themselves they heard something when they played music backward. Glenn Beck does tell his audience that the country is in danger from socialists plots and the economy is going to collapse into chaos. That's not something people are interpreting, it's his message.

I think we pretty much agree about this: some people are volatile or sick, meaning that if they don't get help they're likely to do something bizarre or crazy. What happens is influenced by what they are exposed to. So perhaps this guy was very likely to do something crazy regardless, Glenn Beck's views resonated with him, and he tried to start a revolution because he was watching a lot of Glenn Beck and other shows of that type.

Is that Glenn Beck's fault? He's never told anybody to kill anybody else. What I would say is that he's an entertainer, and his version of entertainment is saying things that terrify a lot of people and playing to those emotions. He's nowhere near putting a gun in anybody's hands, but we'd all be better off if people did not handle these kinds of subjects in the inflammatory and crazy way he does. He's toying with people, basically, and while most of them probably know the score, some of them don't realize he's just a guy saying crazy stuff because it gets him paid a lot of money. That's the problem. It's probably part of the human condition for some people to be that manipulative and thoughtless, and for others to be that gullible.
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2010, 11:17 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Glenn Beck is a jerk. He is a rabble rouser, sitting in his "fear room" and fearing unnnnnhhhhhh something.

BUT this perp was a nutcase who already had a felony on the books. If he didn't have Beck to blame, he'd have someone else. Beck did not tell him to do it. " ... He's never told anybody to kill anybody else. ... " He says a lot of nonsensical paranoid garbage, but he never said "go kill someone". He'd be in jail for inciting violence if he did. At the very least, he'd have been taken off the air and fired by now. I have NO use for Beck, but it isn't his fault that some ex felon space cadet was crazy.
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  #4  
Old 10-11-2010, 11:26 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Beck did not tell him to do it. " ... He's never told anybody to kill anybody else. ... " He says a lot of nonsensical paranoid garbage, but he never said "go kill someone".
To my totally unqualified reading, Williams sounds like an untreated schizophrenic. He says Beck and other broadcasters are trying to lead him to a certain conclusion without admitting what they mean, he's big into conspiracy theories, he's got the notebooks full of stuff, and we know what he wound up doing. Not that all schizophrenics wind up doing those things.

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He'd be in jail for inciting violence if he did. At the very least, he'd have been taken off the air and fired by now.
I'm not sure he'd be in jail, but he wouldn't be drawing a paycheck from Fox. Ann Coulter once got fired for saying stuff like that, and it was only a week after September 11th. And speaking of her, the New York Times had a piece this week about how she is reinventing her act after having been displaced by people like Beck.
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  #5  
Old 10-11-2010, 11:41 AM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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To my totally unqualified reading, Williams sounds like an untreated schizophrenic. He says Beck and other broadcasters are trying to lead him to a certain conclusion without admitting what they mean, he's big into conspiracy theories, he's got the notebooks full of stuff, and we know what he wound up doing. Not that all schizophrenics wind up doing those things.
As much as I dislike Beck, I won't hold him personally responsible for every loon that comes along.
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  #6  
Old 10-11-2010, 11:42 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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To my totally unqualified reading, Williams sounds like an untreated schizophrenic. He says Beck and other broadcasters are trying to lead him to a certain conclusion without admitting what they mean, he's big into conspiracy theories, he's got the notebooks full of stuff, and we know what he wound up doing. Not that all schizophrenics wind up doing those things.
As much as I dislike Beck, I won't hold him personally responsible for every loon that comes along.
Neither will I. On the other hand - and this doesn't apply specifically to Beck - is this guy just taking Beck's statements to their logical conclusions? If Beck believed half of what he said he'd probably do this kind of thing himself.
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  #7  
Old 10-11-2010, 11:50 AM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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As much as I dislike Beck, I won't hold him personally responsible for every loon that comes along.
Neither will I. On the other hand - and this doesn't apply specifically to Beck - is this guy just taking Beck's statements to their logical conclusions? If Beck believed half of what he said he'd probably do this kind of thing himself.
I dunno, even if there was some weird liberal conspiracy running the world, I don't think shooting up the ACLU would be a very logical way to attack it. Presumably the Eldars of Progressivism, or whomever is supposed to be running things from the shadows, don't sit around the ACLU lobby all day.

Last edited by Simplicio; 10-11-2010 at 11:51 AM..
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  #8  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:05 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Neither will I. On the other hand - and this doesn't apply specifically to Beck - is this guy just taking Beck's statements to their logical conclusions? If Beck believed half of what he said he'd probably do this kind of thing himself.
I dunno, even if there was some weird liberal conspiracy running the world, I don't think shooting up the ACLU would be a very logical way to attack it. Presumably the Eldars of Progressivism, or whomever is supposed to be running things from the shadows, don't sit around the ACLU lobby all day.
"According to a police investigation, Williams opened fire on California Highway Patrol officers"
Well yeah, the CHP has always been a hotbed of subversive conspiratorial ... stuff. Gotta deal with those pesky police and their constant plots to overthrow the country and do all that lawless ... stuff
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  #9  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:08 PM
villa villa is offline
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There was an interesting article on NPR this weekend about Glenn Beck and his repeated use of the phrase "the Constitution is hanging by a thread." Supposedly this has a lot of Mormon symbolism, especially for certain subgroups of the LDS.
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  #10  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:09 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Originally Posted by villa View Post
There was an interesting article on NPR this weekend about Glenn Beck and his repeated use of the phrase "the Constitution is hanging by a thread." Supposedly this has a lot of Mormon symbolism, especially for certain subgroups of the LDS.
Sometimes it gets so strange, I wonder if maybe instead of LDS maybe there's a bit of LSD?
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  #11  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:10 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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Originally Posted by villa View Post
There was an interesting article on NPR this weekend about Glenn Beck and his repeated use of the phrase "the Constitution is hanging by a thread." Supposedly this has a lot of Mormon symbolism, especially for certain subgroups of the LDS.
Really? Why? "Hanging by a thread" is a pretty common idiom, and I'm not aware of it having any particular meaning for Mormons that it doesn't have for everybody else.
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  #12  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:15 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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As much as the creators of glenbeckisevil.org would be responsible for the assassination of their target. Which is to say, not at all.
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  #13  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:20 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is online now
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To assume this guy would've done "something bizarre or crazy" even without the prompting of Glenn Beck is dangerous speculation.

When people act out in response to right-wing propaganda, why is the immediate response so often "Oh, he was just a felon," or "Oh, he was just a nut," or "Oh, he would've probably acted out anyway?"

Bullshit. The words Beck uses are meant to incite violence, but with enough plausible deniablity for him and the rest of the right wing to duck any consequences. People on the left and in the middle need to stop writing off right-wing "revolutionaries" as "nuts," "felons," and "likely to act out regardless."

This Williams guy did exactly the thing Beck deep-down wants people to do: act out against the left/government/ACLU/etc. Will we only take this threat seriously after we have another OKC bombing? Or Waco?
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  #14  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:28 PM
villa villa is offline
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There was an interesting article on NPR this weekend about Glenn Beck and his repeated use of the phrase "the Constitution is hanging by a thread." Supposedly this has a lot of Mormon symbolism, especially for certain subgroups of the LDS.
Really? Why? "Hanging by a thread" is a pretty common idiom, and I'm not aware of it having any particular meaning for Mormons that it doesn't have for everybody else.
Well I was driving home from a football game, and was a little mad, and didn't hear the whole article but from what I remember there is an LDS group that places great weight on certain prophecies about there being a time when Mormons will be looked to to rise up and save the Constitution, and the "hanging by a thread" terminology is used frequently. I wish I knew more, and was kind of hoping someone with more knowledge on this would help me out.
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  #15  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:38 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is online now
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Googling "LDS constitution hanging by a thread" I came across this:

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.a...=pscthread.htm
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  #16  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:38 PM
Nayna Nayna is offline
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Not a lot of knowledge here, either, but here's the article from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=130470858
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  #17  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:41 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is offline
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Googling, the theory is apparently that Glenn is referencing the White Horse Prophecy. Its kind of hard to tell from the quote in the wikipedia article if thats really what he's doing, or if he's just using the same common idiom that was used in the prophecy by coincidence. The exact quote (""we are at the point or we are very near the point where our Constitution is hanging by a thread.") does make it kinda sound like he's referencing something that he takes for granted will happen at some point if not now, then in the future which strenghtens the case that he's thinking of the prophecy when he uses the phrase, but its hardly obvious either way.
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  #18  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:48 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Glenn Beck is a jerk. He is a rabble rouser, sitting in his "fear room" and fearing unnnnnhhhhhh something.

BUT this perp was a nutcase who already had a felony on the books. If he didn't have Beck to blame, he'd have someone else. Beck did not tell him to do it. " ... He's never told anybody to kill anybody else. ... " He says a lot of nonsensical paranoid garbage, but he never said "go kill someone". He'd be in jail for inciting violence if he did. At the very least, he'd have been taken off the air and fired by now. I have NO use for Beck, but it isn't his fault that some ex felon space cadet was crazy.

It's not even a "logical conclusion" thing since for all intents and purposes the "take our country back" crew are expected to do just that (or at least make substantial progress toward it) in three weeks' time so why go into meltdown mode now (However, if by 2013 they're using "Second Amendment Remedies" because the Golden Age is not being restored quick enough...).


And no, Beck does not want to cause an actual armed insurrection, among other things because as I just said, what happens TO Beck & Co. if 2013 rolls along with the nuts completely unleashed and not only there's no restoration but all those gold investments he shilled turn out to be losers? He just wants us to be afraid that there MAY be an armed insurrection... unless we are sensible and "voluntarily" abandon the evil liberal policies.


If anything Beck will claim this guy gives him more arguments 'cause he can then say it's our evil socialistic policies what's driving people loony. After all, ... "the things he exposed blew my mind"? What, am I Col. Kurtz? will ask Beck. No, don't follow me, follow God... or some crap like that.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 10-11-2010 at 12:51 PM..
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2010, 12:51 PM
boytyperanma boytyperanma is online now
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Well I was driving home from a football game, and was a little mad, and didn't hear the whole article but from what I remember there is an LDS group that places great weight on certain prophecies about there being a time when Mormons will be looked to to rise up and save the Constitution, and the "hanging by a thread" terminology is used frequently. I wish I knew more, and was kind of hoping someone with more knowledge on this would help me out.
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Originally Posted by Brigham Young, 1885
When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the 'Mormon' Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it
Here is the NPR story. I haven't taken the time to listen so maybe my opinion will change.

Dana Milbank has been arguing that Glenn Beck is purposely sending out coded messages to Mormon followers.

I don't buy the conspiracy theory and go with the theory and think Glenn Beck like almost everyone else uses terminology he himself is familiar with. Because he's obviously read some LDS theology it isn't really surprising he uses phrases that can be found there.

Last edited by boytyperanma; 10-11-2010 at 12:51 PM..
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  #20  
Old 10-11-2010, 02:51 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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When people act out in response to right-wing propaganda, why is the immediate response so often "Oh, he was just a felon," or "Oh, he was just a nut," or "Oh, he would've probably acted out anyway?"

Bullshit. The words Beck uses are meant to incite violence, but with enough plausible deniablity for him and the rest of the right wing to duck any consequences. People on the left and in the middle need to stop writing off right-wing "revolutionaries" as "nuts," "felons," and "likely to act out regardless."
I agree, the propagandists of the Right love this sort of thing. They whip their followers up into a frenzy, then when some of them actually act on what is being said they act mock-horrified. It's a form of terrorism; they are trying to terrorize people they disapprove of with the threat of assault or murder, while at the same type the leaders maintain plausible deniability so they aren't the ones who go to prison. And it works; for example, abortion gets harder and harder to get thanks to the omnipresent threat of violence and murder from "pro-life" thugs and assassins. Thugs and assassins who are just acting on what the anti-choice leaders are saying, and who get a great deal of approval from the movement despite official condemnation from the leadership, condemnation which is obviously just crocodile tears.
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  #21  
Old 10-11-2010, 03:00 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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It would be real hard to prove. We can roast Beck all day but to prove it and get him arrested? That's a whole different thing. Maybe one day he will get careless or even more full of himself and actually "say the magic words" that put him in jail, but until then he gets to jabber on.
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  #22  
Old 10-11-2010, 03:41 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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It would be real hard to prove.
Exactly; that's why he and other right wing rabble rousers do what they do. They get to inflict violence and terror without taking the fall themselves; plausible deniability in action.
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  #23  
Old 10-11-2010, 03:59 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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nm. Fuck it - not worth the bother.

Regards,
Shodan

Last edited by Shodan; 10-11-2010 at 03:59 PM..
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  #24  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:00 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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I'm not buying this at all. Because some clown spits some garbage on TV, we no longer have to take responsibility for our actions? There is as much left wing rabble rousing as there is right wing. What about Keith Olbmermann's "worst person in the world" rants? Keith is practically pulling the trigger himself! Who could blame Johnny Liberal for doing what Olbermann was too cowardly to actually act on himself? Talking heads on television are no more responsible for my actions than the video games I play, the movies I watch or the people I work with.
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  #25  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:01 PM
rogerbox rogerbox is offline
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The only mormons I know are extremely conservative, and I assume they either listen to Glen Beck, or at least support his (idiotic) opinions. There have been tons of conservative anti-muslims who demand that moderate muslims apologize for the 9/11 attacks...has there ever been a mormon apology for Glen Beck?

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There is as much left wing rabble rousing as there is right wing.
No there isn't.

Last edited by rogerbox; 10-11-2010 at 04:02 PM..
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  #26  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:19 PM
boytyperanma boytyperanma is online now
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Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
It would be real hard to prove. We can roast Beck all day but to prove it and get him arrested? That's a whole different thing. Maybe one day he will get careless or even more full of himself and actually "say the magic words" that put him in jail, but until then he gets to jabber on.
I doubt he'll ever say magic words that put him in jail, unless he goes on a tangent about how he himself committed a crime. His encouragement of others to do crimes might not ever land him on the wrong side of a criminal case but I think he will find himself with the costly measure of defending himself in a civil matter.
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  #27  
Old 10-11-2010, 04:19 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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There is as much left wing rabble rousing as there is right wing.
No there isn't.
Not even close. Nor does the more extreme left wing (what little of it exists) enjoy open support by the Democratic leadership; the right wing rabble rousers do get that open support from the Republican leadership.
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  #28  
Old 10-11-2010, 05:28 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is online now
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Nor do left-wingers stockpile weapons, join militias, speak of revolution in positive terms, live as survivalists, or get their jollies off of talk of armed conflict as much as right-wingers do.

There's a chunk of the right wing in this country that's ready to pop. I just read a piece in Time Magazine about right-wing militias talking about armed conflict not in terms of "if," but "when." Talkers like Beck, Hannity, Rush and Newt just fan those flames with racial nonsense, second-amendment-action nonsense, Constitution-hanging-by-a-thread nonsense, "not one of us" nonsense, religious nonsense, birther nonsense, and socialist/Communist/Nazi nonsense.

Even at Olbermann's angriest, with his "Worst Person in the World," it's peppered with over-the-top reverb and goofy graphics. Even at our nation's George W Bushiest, the far left's most active and/or vocal leaders were a Hollywood documentary maker, a grieving mother and a former Sports Center host. There were no calls for armed revolution or launching into survival mode. There were no lefties taking out cops or Holocaust museum security guards. There were no lefty compounds making the news with shitloads of ammo and guns. There were no lefty militias running drills in the woods. There were no lefties showing up at presidential events openly carrying loaded weapons.

Lefty rabble-rousing is not anywhere near the ballpark of righty rabble-rousing. Lefty rabble-rousing consists of bitching about the right, and trying to expose lies and hypocracy. Righty rabble-rousing (these days, anyway) makes suggestions of revolution and armed conflict against other Americans if things "continue down Obama's path."

The rhetoric that Beck and other right wingers dish out on a daily basis absolutely makes them responsible for this guy's attempted mass murder. When someone like Beck demonizes the ACLU, ACORN, the Tides foundation, Obama, Muslims, progressives, Democrats, et al as threats to America and our Constitution and Christianity, what do you think is going to eventually happen?
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:04 PM
Discipline Discipline is offline
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What about Keith Olbmermann's "worst person in the world" rants? Keith is practically pulling the trigger himself! Who could blame Johnny Liberal for doing what Olbermann was too cowardly to actually act on himself?
Keith would probably piss himself in delight if he had a following even half as dedicated as the Glenn Beck crowd. I don't know about you, but I haven't heard too many Johnny Liberals quoting Olbermann's screeds as gospel like you see happening with Beck.

Also, most Johnny Liberals are anti-American, ivory-tower intellectual elitists, so they don't own guns or feel they need to use them on some hapless dumbfuck who happened to get called out on cable news in a misguided attempt to "restore honor" to the country they fucking hate anyway.
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:50 PM
woodstockbirdybird woodstockbirdybird is offline
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If you're an adult civilian, even if somebody flat-out tells you to kill someone, it's on you if you actually follow through. I think Beck's as big an asshole as most people on these boards, but I find this trying to blame him shit ridiculous.
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  #31  
Old 10-11-2010, 07:01 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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If you're an adult civilian, even if somebody flat-out tells you to kill someone, it's on you if you actually follow through.
And it's on the guy who gave you the order too. Blame can be shared, you know.

Last edited by Der Trihs; 10-11-2010 at 07:02 PM..
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  #32  
Old 10-11-2010, 07:01 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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If you're an adult civilian, even if somebody flat-out tells you to kill someone, it's on you if you actually follow through. I think Beck's as big an asshole as most people on these boards, but I find this trying to blame him shit ridiculous.
And that's the bottom line.
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:18 PM
woodstockbirdybird woodstockbirdybird is offline
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If you're an adult civilian, even if somebody flat-out tells you to kill someone, it's on you if you actually follow through.
And it's on the guy who gave you the order too. Blame can be shared, you know.
I put the qualifier "civilian" in there because if you're not in the military there's no one in a position to give you such an order. Glen Beck certainly can't "give orders" to the fools who watch his show in any meaningful sense.
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Old 10-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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And it's on the guy who gave you the order too. Blame can be shared, you know.
I put the qualifier "civilian" in there because if you're not in the military there's no one in a position to give you such an order.
Sure there are. Anyone can give you orders. You may not have a legal obligation to obey them but they can certainly be given and obeyed.
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  #35  
Old 10-11-2010, 07:49 PM
E-Sabbath E-Sabbath is offline
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Nor do left-wingers stockpile weapons, join militias, speak of revolution in positive terms, live as survivalists, or get their jollies off of talk of armed conflict as much as right-wingers do.
At this moment in time. Previously in time, twas the other way round. Don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind's blowing, after all.
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  #36  
Old 10-11-2010, 08:02 PM
SteveG1 SteveG1 is offline
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Nor do left-wingers stockpile weapons, join militias, speak of revolution in positive terms, live as survivalists, or get their jollies off of talk of armed conflict as much as right-wingers do.
At this moment in time. Previously in time, twas the other way round. Don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind's blowing, after all.
I see what you did there
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  #37  
Old 10-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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I put the qualifier "civilian" in there because if you're not in the military there's no one in a position to give you such an order.
Sure there are. Anyone can give you orders. You may not have a legal obligation to obey them but they can certainly be given and obeyed.
Go kill Glenn Beck.

Now if you do it, I'm in trouble?
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  #38  
Old 10-11-2010, 09:00 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Sure there are. Anyone can give you orders. You may not have a legal obligation to obey them but they can certainly be given and obeyed.
Go kill Glenn Beck.

Now if you do it, I'm in trouble?
If you had a reasonable expectation that I'd actually do so, then morally at least you'd share in the blame. As it is, no you wouldn't because you have no reason to think I'd actually do something you told me to do.
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  #39  
Old 10-12-2010, 07:47 AM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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Glen Beck never gave an order. He voiced disapproval. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and/or stupidity.
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  #40  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:08 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post

Go kill Glenn Beck.

Now if you do it, I'm in trouble?
If you had a reasonable expectation that I'd actually do so, then morally at least you'd share in the blame. As it is, no you wouldn't because you have no reason to think I'd actually do something you told me to do.
I'm not sure about this comparison either. Beck isn't ordering anyone to kill. I don't think he wants anyone dead and he may be too dumb to realize that some people take his stuff seriously. On the other hand he does tell people that society is about to collapse and they and the country are in mortal danger. If you tell someone that and they fall for it, you don't need to tell them to kill anyone because they'll figure it out on their own. So that's not the same as walking up to someone on the street and telling them to kill someone else at random.
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  #41  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:11 AM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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Beck is responsible for this in the same way that Al Gore is responsible for the Unabomber.

Regards,
Shodan
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  #42  
Old 10-12-2010, 08:50 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
If you had a reasonable expectation that I'd actually do so, then morally at least you'd share in the blame. As it is, no you wouldn't because you have no reason to think I'd actually do something you told me to do.
I'm not sure about this comparison either. Beck isn't ordering anyone to kill. I don't think he wants anyone dead and he may be too dumb to realize that some people take his stuff seriously. On the other hand he does tell people that society is about to collapse and they and the country are in mortal danger. If you tell someone that and they fall for it, you don't need to tell them to kill anyone because they'll figure it out on their own. So that's not the same as walking up to someone on the street and telling them to kill someone else at random.
I would say that pretty much describes any number of alarmists out there on both sides of the aisle. Ariana Huffington immediately comes to mind, with her new book: Third World American.

Quote:
*Starred Review* Could the U.S. be on the brink of becoming a Third World nation? Syndicated columnist Huffington argues that overspending on war at the expense of domestic issues and the alarming decline of the middle class are troubling signals that the U.S. is losing its economic, political, and social stability—a stability that has always been maintained by the middle class.
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  #43  
Old 10-12-2010, 09:51 AM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is online now
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Ariana Huffington's audience isn't government-hating "patriots" who are currently unabashedly stockpiling weapons. She doesn't talk about "coups," and "revolutions," and "the stealing of America" by "Marxists," and "internal enemies, and "burning in the streets" if "something doesn't happen."

Ariana Huffington's audience doesn't talk about coming up with second amendment solutions to their perceived grievances.

Ariana Huffington's audience doesn't run around in Revolutionary War attire with the implied threat of doing it all again if necessary.

No one in Ariana Huffington's audience, as far as I know, has ever strapped on some body armour, packed their mom's pickup truck with ammo and guns, and then headed off to shoot some conservatives-- and when caught said that Ariana Huffington "would never advocate violence...but [s]he'll give you every ounce of evidence that you could possibly need."

A liberal author writing about the decline of the middle class as a result of unnecessary military spending is hardly a call to arms. The shit that Beck does on a twice-daily basis is ....but with enough plausible deniabilty that when one of his listeners/viewers finally does get so fucking freaked out by that Kenyan, socialist, progressive, Nazi, Muslim enemy who's destroying our Constitution that they start putting bullets into their fellow Americans, Beck can sit back and say "What? Who? Me? I'm just an entertainer."

He's not telling his listeners to shoot anyone, but he is filling them with so much fear and anger that you're bound to get some right-wing American patriots who feel they have no choice but to defend their nation with their God-given guns. And that's when you'll hear "What? Who? Me? I'm an entertainer."

Bullshit. He's an instigator. He's the Woody Woodpecker of unhinged right-wingers.
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  #44  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
I would say that pretty much describes any number of alarmists out there on both sides of the aisle. Ariana Huffington immediately comes to mind, with her new book: Third World American.

Quote:
*Starred Review* Could the U.S. be on the brink of becoming a Third World nation? Syndicated columnist Huffington argues that overspending on war at the expense of domestic issues and the alarming decline of the middle class are troubling signals that the U.S. is losing its economic, political, and social stability—a stability that has always been maintained by the middle class.
There are plenty of alarmists on both sides, but you could probably find better comparisons on the fringe of the opposition to Bush. I'm not sure Huffington qualifies.
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:11 AM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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No one in Ariana Huffington's audience, as far as I know, has ever strapped on some body armour, packed their mom's pickup truck with ammo and guns, and then headed off to shoot some conservatives-- (snip)--
As far as you know... But what if it did happen? Would Huffington be held accountable, by you, for the actions of some liberal loony toon who took her words as an unspoken order to kill? I say no.
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  #46  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:16 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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I would say that pretty much describes any number of alarmists out there on both sides of the aisle. Ariana Huffington immediately comes to mind, with her new book: Third World American.
There are plenty of alarmists on both sides, but you could probably find better comparisons on the fringe of the opposition to Bush. I'm not sure Huffington qualifies.
I'm not sure why you are focusing on the "fringe". I picked AH because she's pretty comparable to Beck in terms of media presence and audience. I don't think either one constitutes the "fringe".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder
Ariana Huffington's audience isn't government-hating "patriots" who are currently unabashedly stockpiling weapons. She doesn't talk about "coups," and "revolutions," and "the stealing of America" by "Marxists," and "internal enemies, and "burning in the streets" if "something doesn't happen."
She's preaching the kind of stuff that could easily be picked up by the anti-globalization crowd. A group whose more radical members regularly riot in the streets.
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  #47  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:19 AM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is online now
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Originally Posted by Barkis is Willin' View Post
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Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
No one in Ariana Huffington's audience, as far as I know, has ever strapped on some body armour, packed their mom's pickup truck with ammo and guns, and then headed off to shoot some conservatives-- (snip)--
As far as you know... But what if it did happen? Would Huffington be held accountable, by you, for the actions of some liberal loony toon who took her words as an unspoken order to kill? I say no.

You would have to look at the words she said. If she's repeatedly talking about fire in the streets, revolution, coup, second amendment solutions, rising up...then yes.

If she sings "Helter Skelter" and someone claims to hear something about race riots, then no.

It really is context and common sense. Beck is basically seeing how close he can get to yelling "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater without actually saying the word "Fire."
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:30 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by Barkis is Willin' View Post

As far as you know... But what if it did happen? Would Huffington be held accountable, by you, for the actions of some liberal loony toon who took her words as an unspoken order to kill? I say no.

You would have to look at the words she said. If she's repeatedly talking about fire in the streets, revolution, coup, second amendment solutions, rising up...then yes.
Does Beck talk about "fire in the streets, revolution, coup, second amendment solutions, rising up"? I think you're exagerating and taking things that other people say and attributing that to Beck.

But I don't watch Beck, so I could be wrong. Can you quote those things having been said by Beck?
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  #49  
Old 10-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is offline
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Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
If you had a reasonable expectation that I'd actually do so, then morally at least you'd share in the blame. As it is, no you wouldn't because you have no reason to think I'd actually do something you told me to do.
I'm not sure about this comparison either. Beck isn't ordering anyone to kill. I don't think he wants anyone dead and he may be too dumb to realize that some people take his stuff seriously.
I on the other hand am quite certain that he and his fellow right wing propagandists DO want people killed, with Obama at the top of the list. And this sort of thing is their strategy for killing people without dirtying their own hands and going to prison for it. They've been doing it for years.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:40 AM
Blaster Master Blaster Master is offline
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Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
That's not a good comparison. Ozzy got blamed for some suicides based on the lyrics for a song that was anti-alcohol. Other metal bands were falsely accused of secretly hiding evil messages in their songs through backmasking, a technique that could allegedly deliver messages directly to the subconsious of impressionable kids who did not even know they were hearing something sinister. It was a total fiction invented by paranoids based on people convincing themselves they heard something when they played music backward. Glenn Beck does tell his audience that the country is in danger from socialists plots and the economy is going to collapse into chaos. That's not something people are interpreting, it's his message.
I have to disagree, I do think it's an apt comparison, though his examples are perhaps not the best. Let us not forget how violent videogames and music were blames for specific attrocities like Columbine. Stuff like Ozzy and Metallica, or the famous "backwards message" in Stairway to Heaven are generally benign; hell, the guy who shot Lennon was supposedly inspired by The Catcher in the Rye. But there certainly is rap, metal, rock, electronic, and plenty of other music in plenty of other genres, not to mention plenty of literature, film, and other types of entertainment that glorify violence, wanton destruction, hatred, and advocate the overthrow of government and other constructs.

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I think we pretty much agree about this: some people are volatile or sick, meaning that if they don't get help they're likely to do something bizarre or crazy. What happens is influenced by what they are exposed to. So perhaps this guy was very likely to do something crazy regardless, Glenn Beck's views resonated with him, and he tried to start a revolution because he was watching a lot of Glenn Beck and other shows of that type.
This, I mostly agree with. But this begs the question, that is impossible to answer, of whether or not this guy might have done something similar if Glenn Beck didn't do what he does. Would this guy have resonated with some other message and done a similar act? Hell, he might have resonated with something that any sane person would see as benign, but because his brain doesn't work right, he gets something completely different out of it. Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons.

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Is that Glenn Beck's fault? He's never told anybody to kill anybody else. What I would say is that he's an entertainer, and his version of entertainment is saying things that terrify a lot of people and playing to those emotions. He's nowhere near putting a gun in anybody's hands, but we'd all be better off if people did not handle these kinds of subjects in the inflammatory and crazy way he does. He's toying with people, basically, and while most of them probably know the score, some of them don't realize he's just a guy saying crazy stuff because it gets him paid a lot of money. That's the problem. It's probably part of the human condition for some people to be that manipulative and thoughtless, and for others to be that gullible.
I'm going to have to disagree here. I would say Glenn Beck is at least a bit irresponsible with how he handles the issues and his influence, but you really can't rest any of the blame of what a crazy person does. Yes, I wish someone like Glenn Beck would be a bit more responsible, but it's part of the trade-off that comes with our liberties. The vast majority of people can be "entertained" by Glenn Beck and not attempt mass murder, but there's no way to prevent the random crazy without also infringing on the freedoms that we hold so dear. So, I can't assign any blame to him for any specific act done by one of his viewers.

That said, I still think he's irresponsible in general, not so much that he might incite similar acts of violence, but because he surely is aware that even generally adjusted people live in greater fear because of what he does. In fact, I hold everyone to the same standard. We are all ultimately responsible for our own actions, so it's wrong to blame someone else, but condoning or enabling poor choices by others still makes you a douchebag, even if you don't force them to make that choice.
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