So there are a number of threads about the judge, the belt and his daughter, and if people were hit or abused.
A number of posters have related that they were abused a children. Some say that they decided not to have children, others have talked about breaking the chain of abuse.
In one of the threads, I give a couple of examples of the abuse which my siblings and I had to endure, and relate that one of my brothers and one of my sisters didn’t make it out in one piece. Unfortunately, the abuse was sever enough to cause lasting psychological damage for which these two are unable to work or function adequately in society. My other brother didn’t transition to becoming a positive father. While I don’t know how much, if any abuse he did, the woman he married and the mother to his two kids did abuse them, although it sounds (3rd hand info) like it was mostly emotional abuse; the two adult children are not doing well.
After years of therapy, I finally got to the point where I could trust myself to become a father. I have some beautiful children. Beta-chan is just 3, and seems to be a very happy girl. Didi is one, and has bonded quite well with his father.
While being a father for only three years does not make me an expert, and all those who have survived the rigors of parenting adolescents will probably look at me with rolled eyes, there are particular challenges for parents who grew up in a hell other people call home.
In this thread, I don’t really want to turn it into the details of the abuse. It was physical, mental, emotional and sexual. And it was bad.
Also, I’m not going to get into any of the things which I did while still crazy myself. I will say that I never physically hurt or abused anyone, but I did a number of things which I’m not proud of. Thank god I’ve moved beyond the worst of my past behaviors.
Rather, this thread is the story of overcoming all that shit, and to allow people who grew up in sane, or relatively sane environments to ask questions that you would normally not be able to. How does one who knew, growing up, that just as surely as the sun comes up in the morning, that one’s fragile existence on this planet could be snuffed out in a moment, change into a source of security for his offspring? What types of things are easy, what are hard?
It is not a trivial journey, and not one which could be considered completed yet. While many issues have been dealt with, all that is certain is that others will arise. All one can hope for is that I can continue to learn to deal with future issues with the same relative success has the ones which I have somehow managed to resolve so far.
The other posters who were abused, both those who have become parents and others who have elected not to are welcome to provide their insights as well.
I do live on the other side of the world from most of you, so forgive the delays in responses.
Also, as other parents of toddlers know, fairly busy with two active children, which also cuts into my internet time.
I’m doing OK now. A hell of a lot better than I was even a few years back. I’ve gone over everything with trained professionals, so being asked questions on the Net does not cause any more stress.
So, that all said, let me know if you have any questions.
Do you ever find yourself stopping and saying “no, that’s overreacting” or “no, that’s NOT how I parent” when disciplining your kids? IOW, do you find you have to make an effort to not repeat some of the behavior of your abusers? If so, how?
And a big ‘thank you’ for starting this thread. Most of us in your position would not be so brave.
**What are your warning signs? **As in: do you have some internal list of things you NEVER want to do, as well as things that show you might be heading somewhere dangerous. (The red flag list is probably obvious, the yellow flags might be like saying things and immediately regretting them, noticing a lot of physical symptoms of stress or anger, feeling upset and tempted to take it out on the kids in a small way, etc).
Also, What are your exit strategies? Even if things seem mostly wonderful now, you know there is the chance that you might get angry - and even angry words can stick with a kid, as I’m sure you know. Do you have a set time every week where you get a break? A friend/relative/counselor you can call if you feel stressed? A word/phrase/something your wife could say to you if she thinks you’re in a dangerous area?
I am so glad that things are going well for you right now. That’s awesome. I just know that my childhood experience was nothing like yours, but it still messed me up to the point where I fear having children in case those rough tendencies are in me somewhere. I hope you enjoy all the happy and funny and calm moments - and that you never need your backup plans - but it can’t hurt to have them, just in case. Thanks for opening up this topic.
When did you become aware that your household was not normal? I’ve heard lots of abused kids have an “everyone does it, but nobody talks about it” understanding of the world. Was that true for you?
Only once. I was very frustrated, Beta-chan was very frustrated and I started to feel the frustration come out. Fortunately a couple of slow deep breaths and we were back in business. We both survived the terrible twos without any screaming from me. She didn’t return the same curtsy, but then she was two at the time.
My never-abused wife has gotten more frustrated with Beta-chan than I have.
I’ve read a considerable amount of material on babies and toddlers, and have talked to a lot of people about what works and what doesn’t. I’ve worked hard to understand why they do things they way the do. I know that when she screams “Go away daddy” that it’s not personal. Unfortunately for her, it also doesn’t mean that she can have another serving of ice cream.
My parenting style is to have very few rules, (you may not run out into traffic or touch the stove) but the rules at this stage are not negotiable. However, they are always enforced gently but firmly, and always (so far) without anger.
And yes, this process has been very deliberate.
Good questions. I have my set of rules for myself. I do not physically punish my kids, no matter what. I have given the kids over to my wife for a few minutes when I have been particularly stressed and need to walk around for a couple of minutes to calm down, but I think that’s something all parents should do.
Dealing with toddlers, even in the terrible twos is actually a lot less stressful than I thought it would be. I was afraid that I would react more, since my father did, but understanding that toddlers are only screaming or refusing to do something because that is the only way they know how to react helps keep me calm.
I can go someplace in my head when the kids are crying. It’s like I’m observing them through a glass window. There will be times (fortunately only very rarely) when they both are screaming their heads off and I can disengage the noise, which allows me to think of how to calm them down. I have had other parents comment on my patience with the kids, so it seems to be working so far.
My wife would never put up with any kind of abuse (including verbal) of the kids.
I am in counseling now, and am continuing to work on issues in my life.
I also have a couple of really good friends who are both fathers and who we talk about personal issues or problems.
My concerns have been more about depression than abuse, and there are specific signs I have shown my wife to watch for when I am stressed, which for me tends to lead to depression rather than acting out in anger. I trick I learned on keeping anxiety in check is to rub my key holder. That’s a “yellow flag” and both she and I know we need to address it.
I had no idea through high school that there were parents who loved children. I was telling my experience to a girl in college and she broke down crying, and I didn’t really understand why it would be painful to imagine not having someone who loved you.
It was only within the past couple of years that I found out the level of abuse in our family was off the chart, even for abusive households.
This is something I’m wondering too. My dad is a (recovering) alcoholic, but the quiet type that used it to get away from the world. He never laid a finger on either of us kids, but one day when I was an adult and we were trying to do an intervention he blurted out, “I never hit either of you kids!”. It was the first time I realized his drunken father would beat him and his siblings.
Do you think the father/child relationship (with you as the father) is the biggest relationship you experience long lasting problems stemming from your abuse? By that I mean, do you see your biggest dysfunction coming from other relationships/roles you play (member of society, boyfriend or husband, friend, employee, etc)?
Are all interpersonal relationships damaged equally or some more than others? In my history of trauma (not nearly as bad as yours, and mine due to a bout with mental illness rather than abuse by another person) I was still able to form healthy friendships, but other relationships (like with women) were far more dysfunctional. My relationships with my nieces are extremely healthy, as are my relationships with my brothers. So my relationships were affected differently, some became totally dysfunctional and some weren’t affected negatively at all (if anything some became stronger in various ways).
Back before you got into recovery and worked on yourself, were you the kind of person who needed to use rage and anger to feel in control when you felt like you were losing control? How did you feel secure enough that you didn’t need to use them as coping mechanisms? How did you reach a point where you didn’t need those emotions anymore to cope with stress and frustration?
What are you scared of inside of yourself with your relationship to your kids? Are you scared you will not be able to control your temper, scared you won’t be able to protect them, scared you won’t know how to support them? Or what exactly?
Do you speak with others who have survived severe abuse, and do you find any kind of pattern in how they grow up? ie, I would assume some end just as abusive as the abuse they experienced, some are perpetually victimized the same as they were growing up, some become addicts, some become depressed and withdrawn. Do certain coping/defense mechanisms like that come up in your life, your siblings lives or the lives of other abuse survivors you speak with?
Having said that, I really hope everything works out for you. I know (like I said my traumas pale in comparison to yours) how hard it can be to break the cycle of dysfunction and dysfunctional coping mechanisms. I really hope you keep getting better, and I hope you reach a point where life feels at least somewhat effortless and safe. But who knows if that can happen.
I read your post on the other thread and came here. You are so good and brave to start this. I’ve been shaky all day…from reading and posting…on the other thread.
I think/hope I’ve taken in what you said in the OP. About the questions, I know. But can people who’ve learned some coping skills contribute? (Assuming it’s okay, I’m going to “splat” out some I learned…
Never hit. (Which you already know.) We don’t know what “normal” is so there’s no way we could do it appropriately.
Touch them. When you didn’t grow up with it it can seem weird. But it’s important.
Kid around with them. Let them be silly.
You talked about having few rules. I did the same thing. I called it benign neglect. Like if my kid climbed too high up in the tree, I didn’t stop him. But if he hadn’t come down, or maybe went even higher, I would amble over and say something like, “You know…if you fall you could break your neck. And that would be forever.” He would either start back down, or tell me he was “doing something,” (looking at a catapiller or whatever.) My boys are grown now. At every opportunity that comes to them I say “Do it! Go! Have a taste…”
Birthday parties are kids’ “social life.” I didn’t understand that at first. Living out in the country part of the time, and usually being broke, I just wouldn’t send him. Wrong. When I realized the “networking” that blossomed from those parties, he (& younger one) went to every one.
Read to them. Classics. They’ll feel like they grew up with culture, and caring. My mother never read to me (she never tucked me in or even said goodnight.) But that’s okay. I started reading when I was four years old. I don’t know how it came about but books have been my life my whole life.
I’ll think of other things later.
Do you know how exceptional a person you must be for such a good woman as you wife is, to love you?
I’ve heard of situations where in an attempt to break the cycle of abuse, parents go too far in the other direction, for example never disciplining their children or suppressing all conflict and insisting that everyone is happy all the time. Have you struggled with that?
You said that your wife does not have a history of abuse - how does that affect the dynamics of your relationship? (If this is too personal for you to answer, I totally understand.)
What advice do you have for schoolteachers and other adults who are likely to interact with abused children (whether they’re aware of it or not)? Are there things that outside adults did to help you, or things you wish they would have done?
I knew a man who had been abused as a child, knew he had ‘issues’, and decided to break the pattern once and for all. He made the very conscious decision not to be a father. Interestingly, he went on to become a Big Brother of the Year in his city. I wonder whether what you are doing is harder than what he did…?
In my case, I think part of the problem might have been lack of fathering, rather than abuse. I am extremely encouraged by reading of and seeing men getting involved with their children. My friend D is so there with his kids. One of these kids’ biological father essentially ran away and doesn’t want anything to do with the kid. And the kid is such a sweet kid. How could anyone not like him? D stepped in and is an awesome father.
It’s part of who I am, both the experience of it and how I got out, so I’ll talk to them about it at some point. As with anything, it all has to be age appropriate, and something like that is too heavy to deal with until they are much older. When it ever occurs to ask about their now dead grandfather, I’ll stick to things such as “unhappy man” for a while.
Unfortunately, even quiet drunks cause damage to children. I’m always sorry to hear about others’ issues. I hope that things have worked out for you and your father was able to get help.
The relationships with my children is actually the one which was least affected, because they formed after I had “recovered” from many of my issues.
Growing up in that type of environment leaves lasting (but reversible) damage, and it affects your entire life. There’s a reason I am in Japan, it was less painful to be a stranger in a strange land that to be a stranger in my home country.
Humans are hardwired to need the security of someone growing up, and without that psychological and emotional issues are inevitable. The worse the abuse, the younger it starts and the longer it happens, the worse the level of issues.
There is a debate going on within the field of psychology community. A leading expert on trauma survivors has proposed the separate diagnosis of “complex PTSD”, the result of repeated trauma over a longer period of time than single incidents, such as car accidents, rapes or a disaster. Some experts argue that repeated exposure to trauma, such as tortured prisoners or people who were repeatedly abused as children then face a completely different set of problems, and the symptoms can be manifest as the same symptoms as psychotic illnesses.
It’s not just the physical abuse, or even the sexual abuse. The emotional and mental abuse set up dysfunctional attempts to cope which have been to be difficult to change.
An example may make this more understandable. When I was 12, and entered middle school, I had great grades with a 3.9 GPA average. All A’s except for gym. Each report card became the source of increasing pressure from my father, not to do better, but to do worse, since success was not allowed by anyone in our family except for my father. Each report card would bring the whole range of mental and emotional abuse with the sole purpose of tearing me down until after two years I couldn’t take it any more and I started getting B’s. My high school GPA was a safe 3.2 and that was fine, as was failing three terms of AP history (writing essays was too much pressure, until the final term), but success wasn’t allowed. My father’s abuse set up an internal check which would come up anytime I was starting to do “too well.”
We weren’t allowed to completely fail, either, so negotiating life was like trying to ice skate across a frozen angled roof. Better people may be able to pull that off without issues, but the vast majority wind up with serious issues.
I went to a business coach once to deal with procrastination, and his theory is that there are three reasons, the fear of failure, the fear of success and one other which I’ll try to remember later. I took his test and come up with either 9 or 10 out of 10 for all three fears. His response was to ask when my latest panic attack was. One of my friends asked me if I then looked at the calendar or my watch.
Similar to you, there are some relationships which were better than others. I’m driven to protect the weak and kids, and so my sister’s kids love me. I’m the fun uncle.
The terror of feeling like you may be rejected doesn’t allow for normal relationships with women. I was “the crazy” with women for a period of time, and getting past that into a healthier relationship with my wife is one the best parts of my progress.
I have had a number of great friends over the years, and I’m now being able to form better “acquaintance level” of friendship.
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Back before you got into recovery and worked on yourself, were you the kind of person who needed to use rage and anger to feel in control when you felt like you were losing control?
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On occasions, yes.
That’s the $40,000 question. (Estimated cost of treatment over the years, getting therapy in Tokyo isn’t cheap, but it was like a tax, paying what was required to keep me functional enough to work.)
At this level, simple cognitive based therapy isn’t sufficient, you have to do recovery work as well, and that it’s not a trivial process. I would not have been able to do a thread like this several years ago, the pain would have been too much.
Until just recently, I was terrified that somehow I was “damaged” and that I would somehow cause them harm, even without doing anything specifically. I haven’t been concerned about losing my temper with them. It’s been by being able to observe their healthy reactions to life and that they see and trust me as a source of security that I’ve been able to overcome that fear.
As written above, there is a wide range of responses. My mother is one of six children, and I am one of 34 grandchildren in that family. While our family (with five kids) had it the worst, and my uncle’s family (he was the oldest and the only boy) escaped without the same problems, there are enough victims to see most of the spectrum.
Our family was at the borderline. According to my therapists, if the abuse were just a little worse chances are that the problems would have been that much more difficult to overcome. Two of my siblings are mentally ill, and without treatment it’s impossible for anyone to say, but their mental illnesses are within the “normal” range of response to the degree of abuse.
And in turn, I hope that you have been able to find peace. My motivation comes now from a desire to be a good example for my children.
Yes, promiscuousness is a known side-effect for a large percentage of victims of sexual abuse, and the fucked up (no pun intended) messages of growing up in a strict Mormon family with rampant sexual abuse drives people to all sorts of dangerous behaviors.
As a “not bad looking” Caucasian male in Tokyo, I certainly had an easier time than if I were just another face in the crowd. And it helps if you have the ability to pick out the crazy.
Thanks. Even before while I was having a lot of problems, I wasn’t crazy all the time.
It occurs that people may be reading my admission of being “crazy” too literally. While I’ve had my issue, I’ve also graduated with a BSEE degree, started and ran successful companies and made money for myself and partners. I’ve raised scores of thousands of dollars for charities, and am very driven at times. Not all the craziness is bad.
Certainly, this isn’t about me, it’s a chance for people who never have had to live in hell know how you learn how to climb out and I welcome the contributions of anyone.
And I’ll add don’t scream, because we don’t know what is a “normal” level of screaming so we can’t do that appropriately either.
You know of what you speak. And along with touching them, allow them to have feelings without using them to destroy their souls, validate those feelings by asking them if they are unhappy or mad and not making it the end of your or their world.
For those of us who grew up not being allowed to be a child, this is important.
Coincidentally, that’s the title of a blog I just recently found by an anthropologist who looks at contemporary parenting and is his advice.
Our family was isolated in the middle of a city, attending church twice weekly and school daily. Abuse does that.
With my kids, we get together with other families of similar aged children pretty much weekly. We stayed in the mountains this summer with several families who are current or former classmates at my daughter’s daycare / preschool. The kids still play like they are going camping.
One advantage of having children later in life (and an area I’ve been fortunate) is not having to worry about money. I’m not rich, but I don’t have to be concerned about spending money on kids’ activities.
Funny, I taught myself how to read as well, which allowed me to create a different set of pronunciations than the other several hundred million English speakers.
Please do so, and anyone else is welcomed to join.
I donno, but I do know that I did find an exceptional woman.
My sister married a man who resembles my father in many ways (without being actually abusive). His daughter (“Kay”) from a previous marriage has a daughter a year older than Beta-chan. Kay has gone the complete opposite from her father, and fails to discipline or to say no, and the girl is really turning into a pill. The opposite of crazy is still crazy.
This is where the studying and talking to other people comes in, to learn what is appropriate and healthy. I think I’ve been able to handle things well so far.
It can be hard for her to understand why certain things cause certain reactions within me, but she’s been great about working with me. We have our share of normal disagreements within couples.
When I grew up in the 60s, outsiders did not get involved. My father systematically destroyed any potential relationships with other adults (a classic sign of an abuser) so there really wasn’t anyone who specifically helped me. I do remember good teachers, though, and it was good to have them.
For advice, first, be a good adult; it will help all children and not just abused ones. Children thrive with getting recognition from adults and that received from a teacher may be the only recognition an abused child may receive.
Unfortunately, reporting suspicions can cause a lot of problems for good families, so that can complicate the issue. If I were a teacher and had suspicions, I’d frame it as the specific behaviors I would observe: “Johny seems to have trouble with his emotional outbursts.” I hope there are resources where teachers can turn to.
It doesn’t sound like there is much difference, other than what I do is full time. It sounds like he successfully learned how to deal with his issues, so I have no doubt he would have been a good father.
I was physically and emotionally abused by my father growing up and carried a lot of anger for a very long time–far too long. In spite of how much I said I didn’t want to parent like my father, I didn’t know how to parent. With years of counseling and a series of very intensive parenting classes, I learned the skills I needed not only to successfully parent, but to be a well-balanced person.
That being said, it was very difficult at times.
My kids always say that they had a great mother, while I say I had great kids. Without addressing my past abuse and learning new skills, I believe neither would have been possible.
This makes so much sense. I can say I don’t want to do something like my family did (parenting, other relationships, money, health, religion as an excuse to be a dick, etc.), but there’s still that part of me that thought *everyone *did it that way, and I don’t know what a better way might be sometimes. I was surprised to hear my high-school friends felt bad for me: my parents kept reiterating how they were normal and I was the screwed-up one, and they had all the power, so it took awhile to truly believe “outsiders” (teachers/counselors/friends) that there was any good in me and that something was seriously wrong at home.
Now that I’m out of “the crazy,” I still have trouble with balance and moderation, and new things come up fairly often that I could be doing better, but I never knew that “better” even existed. (You mean, if I behave like myself instead of who each person around me seems to want me to be, some people still won’t reject me? You mean, if I tell my friends something secret, they won’t use it to humiliate me next time I upset them? You mean, if I fight with my boyfriend, and I admit I was wrong, he’ll think that’s strong instead of weak?)
Trying to peel off the simultaneous labels of “fuck-up who is responsible for all our problems” and “gifted kid who has to be the bigger person as well as fix things that they don’t understand” and put on a new nametag is a struggle. I’m inspired by the people in this thread who have been through worse than I have and come out better. I’m still young and I’m still recovering and learning, but I like knowing it can be done.
I love this, too. The support and understanding - stated or not - I got from teachers is why I’m in teacher training today. I found self-confidence, subjects to enjoy, and most importantly, healthy role models teaching my classes and music lessons. A smile, a word of encouragement, or just teaching a kid something about the world and how they can fit into it, can make such a difference. Parents should ideally be those reasonable role models, but whether they are or not, having relatives/teachers/any other “good adults” around matters.
First, I’d like to thank TokyoPlayer and the others for contributing to this thread. On an intellectual level (I’m a moral philosopher), I am glad that you decided to contribute here. It is better that the damage abuse can do, and the reasons that people cope as they do, be placed on the table rather then swept under the rug.
On a personal level, this is freaking me out. I don’t really think that I was abused as a child, but I have always hated my childhood, and the emotional and behavioral responses to that that you have put forward are all things I have experienced, although I doubt to the degree you have. I too, know to never raise my voice, I too am the protector of the young and the weak, I too am afraid that my secrets will be used against me, I too felt and continue to feel that there is something wrong with me. I am now in tears because you have described my life.
One reason I started this thread was to hear from others who have been through the same experience. It is a struggle, but living with the old nametag is hell as well, so why not choice the pain which will help you mend.
OTOH, one can choice to not face issues, like my mother, who still is a professional victim. Yes, she was an abused child and a battered wife, but her father died 40 years ago and her husband 27. Yet, still, she is an emotional six-year-old, sending me hateful emails because I’m unable to read her mind. For the most part, she’s a sweet woman, but terribly, terribly weak. She still won’t own up to her part of the problem.
I’m a product of the 60s in which abuse was never discussed, and in which people looked the other way. Literally. My mother took my older brother in the the doctor to have some limb fixed, and when the doctor asked what had happened, by mother said that my father had stomped on him. The doctor literally turned away. Sexual abuse was rampant in my extended family, with a couple of other uncles also perpetrators. It’s only coming out now, 40 years too late to save the younger cousins, but at least grandchildren are getting spared.
I’m sorry that this touched a nerve. It could be that you didn’t get good parenting but feeling like this are also common among those haven’t been abused or neglected. Some degree of suffering is a universal problem for all but the most obvious in life.
The best advice I’ve heard on this is to look at it, and to see if there are ways to overcome this yourself. Decide how serious of a problem it is. Is this something that you can overcome looking into why you feel this way and purposely finding ways to overcome the feelings? Some people find healing and a purpose in life in channeling the protective feelings, such as Sunspace’s friend.
And, if you find that you aren’t able to make progress on your own, many people find it beneficial to talk to someone professionally trained.
It does hurt a lot when this stuff comes to my mind.
I will confess that I think that the only reason Bill flys me to see him is for the sex. I’m pretty worthless, so that is the only reason anyone would want to have me around.