Why no strip mall ninja schools?

[Yarster]

Let's start with the premise that most people think ninjas are cool; especially kids.

Now walk past any strip mall in America and you will see every variety of Tae Kwon Do (sp?), Karate, Jui-Jitsu, MMA, boxing, etc. school/dojo, but none are dedicated to ninjitsu. Why not? If I had to enroll a kid in a martial arts program, it would seem like there would be a coolness factor to going to The Ninja Academy, yet somehow this idea has missed everyone, or has it? I have personally never seen one and I would think the costume alone would be worth the price of joining. Is it just that ninjas are a big joke in the martial arts community? Or is there something about it that makes it so 'advanced' that you have to learn other martial arts first? (Sort of like how you have to learn to fly fixed wing aircraft before you can get a helicopter license).

It would seem to me that even the very obese kids who want to take a martial art for self defense would gain an advantage in the eye hand coordination of being able to throw objects accurately at a bully and make use of objects around them as weapons if needed (at least that's what I think of ninjas as doing). So what's the straight dope, because you can't tell me there wouldn't be a market for this?

[DrFidelius]

There is, and they are out there. You just can't see them.

[Lemur866]

It is because ninjas are a big joke in the martial arts community.

Your idea of a ninja--a guy in a black costume who is a master martial artist--is completely wrong. Ninjas were just spies, and it would be kind of dumb for a spy to wear a distinctive constume, now wouldn't it? And they weren't master martial artists, because if you're a spy and you have to fight then you're already screwed.

[Little Nemo]

Same reason there aren't samurai schools.

Try going to an insurer and tell them you want to teach young children how to fight with edged weapons. Ask how much your liability insurance will be.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Same reason there aren't samurai schools.

Try going to an insurer and tell them you want to teach young children how to fight with edged weapons. Ask how much your liability insurance will be.

I saw a documentary on that once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Mim...eature=related

[Chronos]

I've read that the origins of the black-pajamas ninja costume come from the conventions of Japanese theater. Stagehands can be on stage at any time, and they're dressed all in black so as to be unobtrusive, but they're still visible, so the convention is for the audience to just ignore them. Well, some playwright made a play with ninjas in it, and achieved the effect of making them "invisible" by dressing them as stagehands: From the audience's point of view, they came out of nowhere, because they never expected the stagehands to interact directly with the actors.

The most common attire for real ninjas was to dress like beggars. Though of course they'd also dress differently, if it would work better for the particular mission.

[Ethilrist]

In addition to teaching kids how to fight with swords and throw shuriken, the rest of the training is just brutal--teaching them how to run up a wall or jump off the roof of a 2nd story building ends up with a lot of injuries, and that's kind of hard to explain to the parents. All that tumbling and falling is usually a lot more punishment than most kids are willing to put up with, and it's really hard getting the parents to sign off on the waiver that gives you permission to teach the kids how to use poison.

[kunilou]

Try putting a bumper sticker on your car that says "My child is a graduate of The Ninja Academy" and see what happens.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Chronos

I've read that the origins of the black-pajamas ninja costume come from the conventions of Japanese theater. Stagehands can be on stage at any time, and they're dressed all in black so as to be unobtrusive, but they're still visible, so the convention is for the audience to just ignore them.

Bunraku (or here)

[Shamozzle]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Same reason there aren't samurai schools.

Try going to an insurer and tell them you want to teach young children how to fight with edged weapons. Ask how much your liability insurance will be.

There are samurai schools. The art is known as "kenjutsu". There is a small handful of schools in North America and it is serious business.

[appleciders]

Originally Posted by Shamozzle

There are samurai schools. The art is known as "kenjutsu". There is a small handful of schools in North America and it is serious business.

Kenjutsu is more precisely the study and practice of fighting with a katana. The contrast is to kendo, which is also studies katana combat, but is a little more stylized, like modern-day fencing is to actual longsword combat. Kenjutsu is (or at least claims to be) truer to the old style samurai sword training. Still, there was a hell of a lot more to samurai training than simply sword training, and the accuracy of modern kenjutsu is debated. Personally, I think fairly well of it, but to claim that it's not a subject of some controversy would be misleading.


I have seen martial arts schools that advertise themselves as "ninjutsu" academies. I'm not really qualified to judge how much of a joke they are in the martial arts community, but my impression is that they are a big, big, big joke.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Why would you tell an insurer you'd be training kids to use edged weapons? Haven't there been training methods for thousands of years to train with that don't require you actually use the sword? Like kali sticks of appropriate weight and length or better yet, an actual training sword?

[psychonaut]

Originally Posted by Shamozzle

There are samurai schools.

Isn't "samurai" just a term for the military nobility in feudal Japan? If so, asking why there are no samurai schools is like asking why there are no knight schools: because you don't become a nobleman by going to school. But even if you wanted to learn to do all the things that a knight or samurai normally did, this would involve a heck of a lot more than combat training, including learning skills which are no longer useful, practicable, or even fun in the modern world.

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Knight school

[psychonaut]

Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension

Knight school

Looks like a run-of-the-mill fencing and swordplay school to me. Where are the classes in socage, serjeanty, enfeoffment, frankalmoigne, and pimp tenure?

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The most common attire for real ninjas was to dress like beggars.

I read that as "dressed like badgers" on my first take.

Originally Posted by psychonaut

Where are the classes in socage, serjeanty, enfeoffment, frankalmoigne, and pimp tenure?

Pimp school is at the other mall - you know the one.

[DrFidelius]

Badgers? We don' need to dress like badg...

Eh, nevermind.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

When I was 15 I started taking lessons at a ninjitsu dojo a friend located precisely because we thought being a ninja would be really cool. We were interested in trying martial arts and when we discovered that ninjitsu was really something you could learn we were immediately sold on it.

I don't think it's well respected by other martial artists, but I don't see what that has to do with opening a location at a strip mall and attracting neighborhood kids. So basically I don't have an answer for Yarster - I think it'd be a great way to draw in business.

By the by, my ninjutsu dojo was in the guy's barn and almost everybody in class was 30+. Nobody had any interest in martial art as a sport, they were all very interested in it as a practial self defense. Most of what we did was joint locks and other pain based techniques... I don't think they ever called them pressure points but I forget the word they'd use.

We occasionally did work with knife fighting but it was very self defense based; the primary point of the lesson was that you were likely to get all cut up and might die but if you have no chance here's your best ninja technique to get your assailants knife away, etc.

We did the same thing with guns once, but obviously that was general ninja technique applied to a handgun, not the ancient 1000 year old ninja technique for dealing with pistols.

[Bricker]

My son's Tae Kwon Do school has a program for younger students called "Knee-High Ninjas" that is quite popular.

[Testy]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Why would you tell an insurer you'd be training kids to use edged weapons? Haven't there been training methods for thousands of years to train with that don't require you actually use the sword? Like kali sticks of appropriate weight and length or better yet, an actual training sword?

Covered in Bees!

I believe they do use a wooden sword at the beginning. They eventually have to graduate to something that actually cuts and it chills the blood to think of some of the MA people I've known waving a giant razor blade around.

Regards

Testy

[Yarster]

I can't imagine the insurance is an issue any more so than any other martial art, If you have kids being thrown to the ground, someone is just as likely to land wrong and dislocate a shoulder as they are to get hurt when a special "soft" throwing star is thrown at their head while they are wearing a protective helmet. Like anything else, you would eliminate all the very dangerous jumping portions and focus on improvising weapons, quick takedown and escape, and other 'dirty' fighting techniques that you associate with the ninja. Since ninjas are so "secret" anyway, I would think you could develop your own curriculum and have it certified by a self created "ninja approval committee" as gospel. You could tailor it to the age of the kids taking the class to make it sufficiently hard, but not undoable since we now live in an era where "everyone gets a trophy to build their self-esteem". I can't thnk of a better way to build up confidence in a kid while they learn something they otherwise think is cool. Who wants to play soccer when you could join the elite Ninja Academy!

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Bunraku (or here)

Kabuki, actually. The black outfits of bunraku puppeteers serves the same 'ignore this guy' purpose, but a puppeteer wouldn't burst into the scene as a character, because they're not puppets. A kabuki actor however, could dress as though he's a stage hand (and thus not to be paid attention to) until the moment when his character magically appears out of nowhere, and aside from the 'person who doesn't exist' becoming part of the action, it'd be no different than any other play.

Edit - And I have heard of one story of a real ninja actually wearing the black pyjamas while doing his job - but that was deliberately to draw attention to himself to act as a diversion for a compatriot who was doing the more standard ninja thing of looking like he was supposed to be there.

[Ludovic]

I just came here to say that "Strip Mall Ninja" would be a good band name.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

I just came here to say that "Strip Mall Ninja" would be a good band name.

but a terrible movie...

[don't ask]

Not a strip mall but there is a Ninja school that made the news around the corner from my place.

[Sicks Ate]

When I first saw videos of Parkour, my first thought was "that explains ninjas!"

If I wanted to train to be a ninja, that's where I'd start. After all, if you can access areas that nobody in their right mind would think are accessible, and escape from somwhere from which escape seems impossible, you're pretty darn ninja-like.

[Ethilrist]

Originally Posted by Darth Panda

but a terrible movie...

Didn't Pauly Shore... ?

[Zebra]

The real problem is that all the belts are black belts.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

I read that wrong, I was wondering why there would be schools that teach Mall Ninjas to strip. And yes, Mall Ninjas do exist, at least on the Internet.

[ducati]

You can't have anyone use real weapons for liability's sake.
You'll have to teach them to use their imagination...

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Originally Posted by psychonaut

Looks like a run-of-the-mill fencing and swordplay school to me. Where are the classes in socage, serjeanty, enfeoffment, frankalmoigne, and pimp tenure?

Here's Knight camp. Pimp camp I can't find, sorry.

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

NM

[Blue Blistering Barnacle]

This "ninja costume derived from artistic convention" is great stuff! I love it! There ought to be a field of study dedicated to occasions where 'life imitates art'.

My ninja info comes firstly from James Clavell's "Shogun", and then from movies and graphic novels. While I will not claim these as reliable sources, I find my that the Clavell novel mostly informs my emotional reaction to ninjas: that while effective, they are sneaky and underhanded and beyond the pale- not nice people at all. As a consequence, I've always had major difficulties swallowing movies with 'good guy' ninjas (that is excepting the TNMT- love those guys!).

[Lukeinva]

In addition to the ninja schools lets also have a few more peace shops.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension

Here's Knight camp. Pimp camp I can't find, sorry.

Across the street and to the left:

http://www.pimpsandhoessociety.org.uk/pimpology

Look... you can’t have all the beauty and none of the booty. Like lazy-ass Ho’s or the damn Po-Po. Just when yo spot starts to make a knot, "One-Times" there to kill the whole plot. You gotta deal with the strung and the spun... and believe me that ain’t no fun. But the worst is the time in a cell, cuz you be mad as hell when you ain’t got no bail.

There's even an online test!

[Grestarian]

Originally Posted by appleciders

Kenjutsu is more precisely the study and practice of fighting with a katana. The contrast is to kendo, which is also studies katana combat, but is a little more stylized, like modern-day fencing is to actual longsword combat. Kenjutsu is (or at least claims to be) truer to the old style samurai sword training.

With respect....

The art and practice of Kendo is a simulation of sword combat in which the combatants are in padded gear and using shinai [shin nye ...phonetically spelling out Japanese will be a fun exercise here], which are (for the sake of this post) straight substitutes for swords made of split bamboo. All practitioners use shinai, but don't be fooled; a skilled Kendo practitioner can still deliver deadly blows. Kendo practitioners begin with the two facing each other and pointing their shinai at each other.

In contrast, there is another art called Iaido* [Ee-aye-dough] which was developed to exploit the curve and the new (at the time) manner of wearing the samurai sword. Beginning Iaido students will start with a wooden sword (bokken [bow-ken] or Iai-nugi [Ee-eye New-ghi] or bok-to [boke toe] depending on your regional term for the chunk of wood whittled down to match the weight, dimensions, and curvature of the katana. Students who advance enough will eventually use a metal sword. Zinc-aluminum is common, particularly in Japan, because the widespread ownership of sharpened (sharpen-able) katana was outlawed after WWII.** Outside of Japan, there are some of us who use real sharpened steel. Unlike Kendo, the Iai practitioner begins (and often finishes) with the sword in the scabbard. Drawing and cutting are emphasized, and a facet of the art is the demonstrable ability to deliver a clean cut. I'll leave the details of that to vivid and twisted imaginations -- or those who are interested enough to go research more on The Net.

I would argue (respectfully, of course) that Iaido/Iai-jutsu is closer to "katana-usage" than Kendo/Kenjutsu.

As for the "ninja school in the local mall" idea:

If a major part of the ninjutsu culture is about covert operations, wouldn't a storefront operation be counterproductive?
OR
Maybe they're there and you don't know it. Do you really think Edible Arrangements makes enough money to keep a storefront going throughout the year?

--G!
Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu Iai-jutsu

A swordsman sees with his eyes
A samurai sees with his heart



*There are those who refer to the same art as Batto-jutsu; there are those who consider Iaido/Iai-jutsu and Batto-jutsu to be completely different arts.
**The Japanese art of sword-making is limited to a select few artisans. They are limited to a small yearly quota of real steel blades, for the sake of preserving the art form. Such blades are extremely expensive. I think they're typically sold to collectors outside of Japan.

[Joey P]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Bunraku (or here)

or here.

[furryman]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

When I was 15 I started taking lessons at a ninjitsu dojo a friend located precisely because we thought being a ninja would be really cool. We were interested in trying martial arts and when we discovered that ninjitsu was really something you could learn we were immediately sold on it.

I don't think it's well respected by other martial artists, but I don't see what that has to do with opening a location at a strip mall and attracting neighborhood kids. So basically I don't have an answer for Yarster - I think it'd be a great way to draw in business.

By the by, my ninjutsu dojo was in the guy's barn and almost everybody in class was 30+. Nobody had any interest in martial art as a sport, they were all very interested in it as a practial self defense. Most of what we did was joint locks and other pain based techniques... I don't think they ever called them pressure points but I forget the word they'd use.

We occasionally did work with knife fighting but it was very self defense based; the primary point of the lesson was that you were likely to get all cut up and might die but if you have no chance here's your best ninja technique to get your assailants knife away, etc.

We did the same thing with guns once, but obviously that was general ninja technique applied to a handgun, not the ancient 1000 year old ninja technique for dealing with pistols.

Sorry. If you didn't learn Shadow Clone jutsu it wasn't real ninjutsu.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Grestarian

Maybe they're there and you don't know it. Do you really think Edible Arrangements makes enough money to keep a storefront going throughout the year?

Huh. And here I always thought that's how Radio Shack stayed in business.

[appleciders]

Originally Posted by Grestarian

With respect....

The art and practice of Kendo is a simulation of sword combat in which the combatants are in padded gear and using shinai [shin nye ...phonetically spelling out Japanese will be a fun exercise here], which are (for the sake of this post) straight substitutes for swords made of split bamboo. All practitioners use shinai, but don't be fooled; a skilled Kendo practitioner can still deliver deadly blows. Kendo practitioners begin with the two facing each other and pointing their shinai at each other.

In contrast, there is another art called Iaido* [Ee-aye-dough] which was developed to exploit the curve and the new (at the time) manner of wearing the samurai sword. Beginning Iaido students will start with a wooden sword (bokken [bow-ken] or Iai-nugi [Ee-eye New-ghi] or bok-to [boke toe] depending on your regional term for the chunk of wood whittled down to match the weight, dimensions, and curvature of the katana. Students who advance enough will eventually use a metal sword. Zinc-aluminum is common, particularly in Japan, because the widespread ownership of sharpened (sharpen-able) katana was outlawed after WWII.** Outside of Japan, there are some of us who use real sharpened steel. Unlike Kendo, the Iai practitioner begins (and often finishes) with the sword in the scabbard. Drawing and cutting are emphasized, and a facet of the art is the demonstrable ability to deliver a clean cut. I'll leave the details of that to vivid and twisted imaginations -- or those who are interested enough to go research more on The Net.

I would argue (respectfully, of course) that Iaido/Iai-jutsu is closer to "katana-usage" than Kendo/Kenjutsu.

I'm not very knowledgeable about the topic. My point was mainly that kenjutsu is not study of how to be a samurai, it is a martial art involving a simulated katana. Historical samurai training would involve sword training as well as training in other weapons and unarmed combat, in addition to dozens of other things including, very likely, tea ceremony.

[sweeteviljesus]

There used to be ninjutsu schools. Now there is only Chuck Norris.

[Shamozzle]

Originally Posted by psychonaut

Isn't "samurai" just a term for the military nobility in feudal Japan? If so, asking why there are no samurai schools is like asking why there are no knight schools: because you don't become a nobleman by going to school. But even if you wanted to learn to do all the things that a knight or samurai normally did, this would involve a heck of a lot more than combat training, including learning skills which are no longer useful, practicable, or even fun in the modern world.

Yes, sorry. I shouldn't have said "Samurai" when I was only talking about sword arts.

[constanze]

Originally Posted by Yarster

Let's start with the premise that most people think ninjas are cool; especially kids.

Now walk past any strip mall in America and you will see every variety of Tae Kwon Do (sp?), Karate, Jui-Jitsu, MMA, boxing, etc. school/dojo, but none are dedicated to ninjitsu. Why not? If I had to enroll a kid in a martial arts program, it would seem like there would be a coolness factor to going to The Ninja Academy, yet somehow this idea has missed everyone, or has it? I have personally never seen one and I would think the costume alone would be worth the price of joining.

I think you have the wrong starting position here, too. Any serious Budo sport / Martial art teacher will tell you right upfront that in order to master the art / get good at it you need to invest years of training. Any serious teacher* will also add the philosophy behind the martial art, instead of just teaching kids to break boards and nothing else.

So a kid who says "That's cool, I want to do that" is a waste of time on both sides, because once the initial enthusiam is over and it's hard and frustrating work of the beginner trying to master the basics for weeks and weeks, a kid only interested in coolness and the costume** will leave again.

* Apparently there seems to be a different culture in the US regarding this - there is no overhead body or organisation that certifies all budo clubs and makes sure that teachers know what they're doing, and who send senseis who don't belong to the specific club when taking the exams for belt grades? So anybody can open a club and "teach martial arts" without previous knowledge, certification or proper atttitude? Sounds very dangerous and bad. Also can lead easily to the Cobra Kai attitude of the Karate Kid movies where bullies learn how to punch hard, but nothing about the philosophy of not being bullies and avoiding fights.

**Black gis (training suits) are not limited to Nin-jitsu dojos. The club doesn't sew the suits themselves, after all, but orders them or tells the parents to order, at one of a handful of suppliers, where they come in white or black and different sizes. In my old club, children sizes were white, but adults got black suits for some reason. It is a bit of a handicap though because most clubs prefer all white, so I need a new suit.

[Shodan]

Considering that many ninja were female, and essentially prostitutes, getting parents to sign the consent forms would be a nightmare.

Regards,
Shodan

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Same reason there aren't samurai schools.

Try going to an insurer and tell them you want to teach young children how to fight with edged weapons. Ask how much your liability insurance will be.

Well, no one who is sane spars with edged weapons with basic or intermediate students in any blade-based martial art unless there is something very unusual going on. I have been doing fencing as a martial art for years now and have never used a weapon with an actual edge or point on them except as a carefully staged demo, or solo practice faaaaaaaaaar away from everyone else.

Occasionally I meet someone who talks about a "real" duel they had with sharps, or some other sort of real full-speed practice with edged weapons, and depending on the person I either think, or tell them, "wow, you must have been colossally stupid back then."

Apropos of the thread, I'll note that the term "strip mall ninja" was used derisively as far back as the late 1970's in my school, typically referring to the sort of kid who desperately seeks attention by taking 3 months of Tae Kwon Do and then performing such stunts as standing up in a lunchroom to perform katas or wearing his gi and coming barefoot to school (yes, I witnessed both acts).

[oliversarmy]

Isn't this question more along the lines of "Why aren't there classes to teach kids how to spy and kill people if necessary, convenient or economic?"

I think, in the U.S., we wait until they are 18 and can join one of the armed forces. I hear they have programs that result in the desired outcome.

[Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems]

First rule of Ninja School, don't talk about Ninja School...

[Yarster]

I have to respectfully disagree constanze. My starting point is that parents want to get their kid involved in an activity that gets them to get exercise, and be social, while hopefully learning some useful life skills along the way outside of school and the home. I highly doubt the army of five year olds I see in every karate studio made a conscious effort to say "Yes, this is a martial arts discipline I choose to take over all others because of the style and inner peace it brings to my being prior to nap time". More than likely, it looked popular, was affordable, and some of the kid's friends take it, so they were signed up by the parents. That said, if I were to run a karate studio, I would have to advertise heavily because there are hundreds of others in the city competing with mine. Maybe they have better teachers, better times, or are cheaper, but there is tons competition.

With ninjutsu, I don't see any competition out there...anywhere. Every martial arts movie is doing a lot of advertising for me since ninjas are everywhere. And I think word of mouth would spread pretty quickly if it was anything even remotely real. The fact that there are no governing bodies would make it easy to set up, so that's not a barrier to entry. And to everyone who thinks all the principles of the class would focus on assassination, I think it could be what you make of it. That's no different than the movie "The Karate Kid" mentioned earlier. I would teach stealth as a skill, but why does it have to be to sneak up on someone to kill them? Maybe as a defensive skill, it is so you can escape a bully by hiding in a pile of garbage, while also grabbing a pipe in case he attacks you. I think kids would really enjoy the act of disguise and stealth, as well as teaching improvisation in both fighting and escape. And again, let's not forget the coolness factor of the uniform. Hell, I can remember when I was a kid and the big attraction to joining the cub scouts was that you got to carry a knife. I don't remember anyone joining because of the thrill of getting a merit badge for helping the elderly.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Yarster

I don't remember anyone joining because of the thrill of getting a merit badge for helping the elderly.

Well, except for that one creepy kid...




Who now works at the old folks home.

[Autolycus]

A friend of some friends of mine runs a ninjutsu dojo near Orlando, FL. The head dude certainly was a martial arts beas, with numerous belts and titles. He was also built like a monster. He definitely had a large interest in ninjutsu, myth and reality. The walls were literally covered in Japanese ninja and samurai-related weaponry.

Anyway, I went to one session, and from what I gathered it was just a nice well-rounded MMA style training system infused with lots of quasi-ninja terminology. For example, there were no belts, but you trained progressively in 5 levels, earth water wind fire void IIRC. Earth was learning how to roll without hurting yourself, then some strikes, joint locks, etc. I think I would have enjoyed it more if not for the hour drive from my place, and the fact that the attendees were mostly military-esque fitness buffs. The 30 minute intense physical warmup followed by 90 minutes of very intense rolls and falls left me with a panic attack in the car afterward. Still, if it was closer and not so expensive I might have stuck with it.

Sorry, I am no longer sure how relevant that story was, but at least it shows there are 'ninja schools' out there. Oh, and in Japan there is one ninja school in one of the homes of historical ninjas that at least claims itself to be authentic.