BTW, not to hijack the thread but I remember seeing a video in 2001 that showed what appeared to be a small projectile narrowly missing the 2nd NYC plane. It was purported to be a failed attempt to shoot down the plane. Was this a hoax? I assumed it was at the time and I never heard anything about it since then.
I thought Bush was too busy at his photo op to give any such order?
So which is it?
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He was reading the story to the kids because he is a moron
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He was reading the story to the kids because it was an evil plot by the CIA and NWO
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He was reading the story to the kids but secretly ordered the planes to be shot down, contradicting both of your previous claims
You want to add any more options to the quiz?
Oh, come on guys. How can Bush staying in the classroom help the country? His calmness didn’t assure me in the least. In fact, it is frightening to me that the President was not “in the know” regarding the attacks. He had to be updated when he left the classroom.
Zagadka, I quite clearly said “rogue” planes not “random” planes. You are trying to portray me as a reckless, shoot-em-up type of guy. I am saying that Bush, once hearing that the nation was “under attack” (the exact words he heard by the way), he should have sprung into action. I’m not saying he should have ordered planes randomly shot down, but he could have assessed the situation to determine whether or not there were more unresponsive planes and whether or not they appeared to be heading towards targets. I am not even saying what he should have done. I am saying that he should have done something. At the moment when we were under attack, which the president knew, George W. Bush chose to read a story about a billy goat rather than assess the situation, rather than calling Tenet, rather than making a decision of any sort. He made a decision when he left the school, but he couldn’t have possibly made a decision while he was reading with the kids. How can anyone make a rational decision surrounded by a bunch of noisy little kids?
Also, I never claimed that I am a super-genius for believing that al-Qaida was responsible. I was somewhat informed on the group (their sister group, Egyptian Jihad, has specifically targeted my church) and I remember distinctly the embassy bombings and the bombing of the Cole. It didn’t take a lot of thinking to realize that al-Qaida was behind the whole thing. Heres the point, though, I didn’t say Bush should have made a determination as to who was involved. Considering that even an imbecile such as myself could deduce that al-Qaida was the likely culprit, Bush should have been able to see that there was a distinct possibly that we were under a terrorist attack.
But, ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether Bush thought it was al-Qaida or not. He was told by Andy Card “we are under attack.” How could he go from that to thinking it was an accident? And why didn’t he seek more info?
Read my posts please. I did not say I believed it. In fact I said that I dismissed it as a hoax. I was curious about the tape and thought this was an appropriate forum to ask this factual question rather than starting a barand new thread. I still stand by what I said before. Read posts more carefully.
Also, I never made any of those claims you just made. I said specifically that I dont believe Bush was involved in any conspiracy. I never claimed that Bush was a moron (not in this thread at least). And I dismissed the tape as a hoax. You are just putting words in my mouth, showing me that you don’t have a rational argument to my one and only claim that the president was indecisive. Feel free to put words in my mouth and then prove them wrong. I guess you can make yourself feel smarter by doing that.
Why do I get the feeling that this is the vision that gets you through many lonely nights?
And so the President should have immediately…uh done SOMETHING other than what he did and the Secret Service should have rushed him and taken him to a protected place which was…uh…uh…let me think…uh…in the air…no…in the plane…no…in the hallway with his head between his legs like the kids have been taught…no…in the SAFE HAVEN FOR PRESIDENTS that is located in ever school in the country…no…
Yes, he knows the country is under attack. He does not know what all that encompasses (and you have given good evidence of that with the possibilities you have listed) and maybe there is a plan that the best thing to do is to spend five minutes (according to the OP) determining that the playground is not surrounded by operatives and that the route to the airport is still clear.
Maybe the Secret Service did make an immediate decision and it was that the President should remain where he was for five minutes.
I doubt that they were considering the children, but certainly someone should have. It wouldn’t just have “hurt their feelings.” It could have freaked them out. Deeply traumatized them. But never mind.
The idea that there can be an instant answer to an infinite number of possibilities is a foolish notion.
Just because there are cameras present doesn’t mean that the situation continues to be a photo op. Photo ops are for those times that make you looking dazzlingly heroic or clever or pleasant. He looked stricken and dazed – like most of us did.
Being able to take a good guess at who was behind the attack is far from knowing instantly what to do. I do not fault the man for those five minutes.
Other than that, he is one of the most inept, shallow, shortsighted, mean-spirited, and poisonous Presidents that we have ever had. I’ve lived through a dozen.
I came across this story a while ago. It didn’t surprise me that Bush would continue a photo op while the White House decided how to respond to the attacks because I figured Bush for a complete tool. The talking head might as well just sit there while his remarks were being prepared.
But now I’m not so sure. Most likely I am underestimating the President. Perhaps he does make decisions. Quick decisions with no real understanding of the reasoning behind the options offered up by his subordinates or time for exploration of alternatives but choices none the less. I doubt he’s a total puppet.
When the country is under a large scale attack, it’s stupid to have the President be in a known location, let alone give a press conference from that location. The threat was of hjiacked planes hitting sensitive targets. The SS knew this: that’s why they rushed Cheny out according to proper proceedure. Bush was not there for only five minutes: check the timeline I posted.
What, to have the President leave, even in a rush? Interuppting the goat story would have traumatized them? He had several opportunities to leave the room, after which the SS could have whisked him away.
It’s not Bush’s job to determine how to keep Bush alive. He doesn’t get to make those decisions. It’s the SS. And they very likely have been reviewing this incident to see how they can do better in the future. What’s wrong with that?
What a silly straw man. They knew, at the time, that two planes had been flown into the WTC by hijackers. They knew this because they had gotten cell phone calls from people on those planes. They knew another plane had gone off its course, was heading for Washington, and they had people with cell calls on that plane as well. Finally, they had people on the fourth plane telling the same story: terrorists had slit people’s throats and had taken control of the plane. So they knew exactly which planes had been hijacked, and what that meant.
What time frame are YOU talking about? How does him knowing that 2 planes crashed into the WTC help him to prevent 2 planes from crashing into the WTC? We’re looking at 9 am, not 10:30.
But you have to KNOW that you are under large scale attack. Also, do you have a cite that the SS tried to get Bush out and he over ruled them or something? Maybe they decided it was better to sit tight for a time? I don’t know, thats why I’m asking. I have heard nothing about Bush (or anyone else) over ruling the SS, nor about them attempting to get him out at all right away. I was under the impression that if the SS thought an attack was eminent they would simply grab the President and force him to safety.
You people seem fixated on the ‘goat story’. Why is that? What difference does it make WHAT he was reading? The point which many of you seem unable or unwilling to grasp is that if the president rushes out of a public place like that with SS guys looking worried and guns out, it could and probably would cause a panic. If I had seen the President being rushed out of there I would have been pretty worried myself. As it was, the president stayed calm. Again, I ask…does anyone have a cite that the SS tried to get Bush to leave but he refused? That they wanted to move immediately and were over ruled?
But ok, lets say that the terrorist happened to be alert enough, informed enough, and lucky enough to actually have assets in place to attack the president (something I find HIGHLY unlikely, though I don’t know how much in advance this trip of his was public knowledge)…and they managed to wack him. So what? The succession is assured guys…thats what the VP is for, and on down the chain.
Thats true enough…its NOT Bush’s job to look after himself. Thats what the SS is for. However, again, is there any evidence that they tried to do so and were denied or over ruled? I’ve seen none. Is there any indication that they are looking into this as something that ‘went wrong’? Do THEY think its something that ‘went wrong’??
-XT (sr)
I realize that you seemed to have had a “clear” understanding of what was happening, why it was happening, and who was in charge on 9/11, but I would venture to say you are the only person (well, maybe one in a handful… let’s go with 5) who was thinking this. Actually, the “other 5” probably thought Iraq was behind 9/11, during all of this, or even Canada. And if either of those scenarios was the case, I’m sure that person (or people) would be condemning everyone else, because “oh, how could you not have known [Canada] [Iraq] [Al-Qaida] was behind this?!”
As far as this goes… you did not know that Al-Qaida was behind 9/11, you only had a hunch, and it turned out to be correct. And as xtisme has already pointed out, we can’t have the POTUS just pulling hunches out of his ass, and acting on them. (Hmm… maybe that’s one of the problems in this case with these WMDs too… but I digress, as that’s a whole different can o’ worms).
No one knew what was going to happen next during 9/11, except for the deranged mind(s) that planned it. Claiming that Bush should have acted quicker, or done something earlier (as in 30 minutes earlier, not months) suggests that he possesses some sort of precognition.
LilShieste
Well, let me ask you this: what did Bush do during the attacks to either try to stop them or figure out who was behind them? I have no idea what Bush could have done, but I think it is absurd that the president did nothing while the nation was under attack.
As for thinking it was Iraq, I remember that being suggested on 9/11, but anyone who paid attention to the previous attacks by al-Qaida should have easily seen that this was al-Qaida’s MO. It doesn’t matter, though, if it was al-Qaida, Iraq, Russia, China, or Cuba attacking us. While we were under fire, Bush did absolutely nothing.
I am not saying that Bush should have or could have formulated an entire policy regarding AQ during those few minutes. However, when he was told that we were under attack he quite simply did nothing. I mean, Dick Cheney knew what was going on–he suggested to Bush, after Bush left the school, that Bush give the order to shoot down any rogue planes (Big Dick couldn’t have given the order seeing as he is constitutionally impotent). According to Bush, he immediately agreed and gave the order.
Bush did make a decision, however, it was made after the carnage. It was too late to do anything. He spent over half an hour in that school when he could have made that same order or at least figure ot what was going on. Lets never forget that he was told we are “under attack.”
He didn’t do nothing. His staff was scrambling trying to figure out what was happening. By the time anyone knew the extent of what was going on, it was far too late to do anything about it, by anyone’s timeline.
What, because of all the other times AQ hijacked planes and crashed them into skyscrapers?
Please. AQ is hardly the only terrorist organization who thought up hijacking airplanes, much less crashing things into buildings. Fact is, AQ was probably the only terrorist organization you’ve heard of, so that popped into your mind as “obvious.”
Actually, if you paid any attention to the news in the late 90s you would remember that AQ declared war on us, successfully attacked us, and announced that they would continue to attack us. They use unconventional methods to attack us before and tried to attack us in spectacular ways that would get the worlds attention. Ramzi Yousef’s foiled plot involved hijacking multiple planes and blowing them up in midair.
I am certrainly not the only one who felt this way either. I think most people who actually knew of AQ assumed it was them. But, Zagadka you have failed again to read my posts thoroughly. I said that Bush should have recognized that AQ was very possibly the culprit based on their history and methods but that it doesn’t matter who he thought it was. He should have made efforts to determine if the attacks would continue and if he could stop them, whether they came from a state or a terrorist group. He made no such effort.
Its pretty obvious that you just don’t get it. Either you are being willful, simply too full of hate for Bush or…well, whatever…there doesn’t seem to be any point to further arguement with you Mambo. Basically its all been layed out for you, and you have yet to even attempt to refute or even argue the points…you simply go back to “well, Bush did nothing…GOAT BOOK BOAT BOOK!”, ignoring the points made that he wasn’t SUPPOSED to do something half cocked and uninformed. He isn’t SUPPOSED to do anything at all in fact except make decisions, and he can’t make life or death decisions on the little facts he had at the time. His STAFF is who gets him the info, who finds stuff out, and they then present that TO him so he can decide what, if anything, can be done.
As to his staying or going, I’ve still seen no evidence that the SS WANTED him to leave immediately, or even that it would have been a wise decision for him to leave abruptly. The wises course for Bush was, IMO, to remain calm and look presidential. THATS his job, not rushing around doing god knows what you think a president is ‘supposed’ to do. I get the idea that you really don’t understand what the president DOES, what role he playes in our government, and what limitations are on the man (who ever he is).
So, it doesn’t matter who attacked us because we were under fire…there for Bush should have immediatedly ordered the nuking of ALL those places, on the off chance it was one of them?? Again, what exactly SHOULD he have done, given what he knew right then?? Understand that, if Bush had of KNOWN it was AQ right away, there STILL wasn’t anything he could DO about it. Not like AQ is running around with a big sign saying HERE WE ARE, nor using GPS trackers we can home in on, no?
The administration (nor anyone else EXCEPT AQ) didn’t know the extent of the attack, didn’t know how many flights were compromised, nor what the further intentions were. They didn’t know for sure even if there WERE more planes hijacked, nor how many nor where they were. Do you understand this? Do you understand that you are using hindsight because now we DO know all these things? You seem to think that the president could simply and easily order the shooting down of all planes, or all ‘rogue’ planes whatever that means, and that this would be a GOOD thing.
For one second, think about what this would mean. Say that Bush DID leap up, toss asside the ‘goat’ book you seem fixated on, and grabbed a phone. In a ringing voice he immediately orders the Air Force to prepare and launch interceptors to shoot down all planes that have deviated at all from their flight path, or simply look ‘wierd’ or whatever is in your fantasy mind…with no real hard evidence or even notion of the scale of the attack. Forget for a moment WHO is doing it, its irrelevant then…but whats the SCALE of the thing? No one knows. But Bush, using his psykic powers and reading the tea leaves (or maybe he disembowles one of the kids and reads the entrails) KNOWS…so they order up the planes. Lo and behold, they SEE a ‘rogue’ plane off its flight path and move in for the kill. Firing missiles they shoot it down…and it crashes in a city somewhere. Bummer ehe? And later they learn that it simply had radio problems, or there was some other screw up in communications, or someone had buck fever, etc etc…and they fucked up and shot down a plane full of innocent civilians. Or, say it WAS one of the terrorist planes…would have to be the one that crashed in Penn though, because the two that hit the WTC were over and done, and nothing was going to stop the one that hit the pentagon…it happened too soon after take off. So, they shoot down the one that eventually crashed in the woods of Penn, but say it actually hits somewhere populated. Are you starting to get a clue how complex thing thing is now?
And instead of you whinning about Bush not ‘doing’ something, now you’d be howling that he acted rashly and killed more people than would have been, blah blah blah. It makes no difference to some people…they are going to hate Bush reguardless. EVen when he does one of the few unqualified things right in his presidency, there are clowns out there that are going to second guess even that. Why people can’t just stick to the REAL stupid things he’s done, and call him on THOSE, is a mystery to me.
-XT
To make my point with less subtlety, I wasn’t surprised that Bush was sitting there with his thumb up his ass while this went on because I don’t think Bush is a leader. Doesn’t it surprise any of you with respect for the President that he wasn’t leading the effort? I suspect the White House knows this would be a troubling question to answer and that’s at least part of the reason why there are so many discrepancies in their stories. The video might make a good anti-Bush campaign commercial for some pro-Kerry 527.
X, how many times have I said that Bush should have gotten himself informed before making his decision? I have made it clear that I don’t know what Bush could have done other than to get himself informed and take the lead as 2sense said. He did neither. I never said he should nuke random countries or shoot down random planes. While he was in the classroom, hijacked planes were still in the air. When else could he have attempted to prevent further attacks?
George Tenet, for example, knew, before Bush even, about the hijackings and realized that it was al-Qaida (IIRC before the 2nd plane hit). Had Bush talked to Tenet during that half-hour he could have been more informed. He chose not to do so. He could have used that 30 minutes to get informed and make the same decision that he finally made when he left the classroom.
For God’s sake, what is the purpose of the President if he won’t take charge during a national emergency?