On another board I frequent, a guy has posted a list of ‘evidence’ that George Bush is responsible for 9/11 - and we are not talking through failure to defend against the attacks, he thinks that the planes were flown into the buildings by remote control.
I made the mistake of attempting to debate with him, as he’s got a bit of a reputation as someone who is very good at debate and always has his fact straight, and when I pointed out inaccuracies in some of his statements, and asked for cites on others, he just accused me of liking Carrottop.
I thought that I should add that I’m not a good debater so I probably can’t help you much, but I think simply asking him to provide cites for some of that information will make his argument a lot harder to defend.
As much as I detest the Bush administration for its lies, its warmongering, its arrogance and the great extended middle finger to the rest of the world that masquerades as a foreign policy, and am normally willing to believe that GWB personally bites the heads off arab babies and dances the macarena while drenched in their blood, that theory is just too utterly stupid and paranoid to even waste time refuting.
A more plausible conspiracy theory is the Chomsky one that the US intended to invade Afghanistan and topple the Taliban because the Taliban werent playing ball with a plan to build a greatly desired pipeline. Alarmed the taliban used their al-qaeda ally to launch a pre-emptive strike on S11 or so the theory goes. I dont buy that theory either but on reading it I didnt picture a man sheltering in his cellar with his anti-alien aluminium foil wrapped around his head.
The truth, which will really get everyone worked up, is that Osama planned and executed the attack in 1993 on the WTC and we knew it was him. We then failed to get him at that time.
Then he blew up the embassies, and we knew it, and once more we failed to get him. Cruise missiles simply were not an effective response.
Then he was responsible for blowing a hole in the USS Cole. We knew it was him, and we didn’t get him.
Do you see a pattern here?
Under whose watch did these things happen? Who allowed Osama and Al-Qaida to mount attacks over and over again with relative impunity? That’s right, it was President William Jefferson Clinton.
Had he taken care of business sometime within the 7+ years he had the opportunity to, September 11th could not have happened.
It was a failure of leadership, no question, but let’s put the blame for that where it belongs.
Uh-huh. Some planes can glide for four hours maybe. Unfortunately, a jumbo jet is not one of those planes. I think Canadian Air Flight 143 made it 40 miles before it crash landed at Edmonton without fuel. And that was a 767 reaching about as far as it was going to go.
That sentence is fairly hard to follow. Your friend needs to learn how to make sense.
Who was it that started shrieking “WAG THE DOG! WAG THE DOG!” whenever Clinton tried to do anything? That’s right, the Republicans. Who was it that armed and supported Osama in the first place? That’s right, the Republicans. Who turned down the FBI’s request to search Massaoui’s personal computer and files, who turned them down? That’s right, John Ashcroft, a Republican. Who prevented FBI Director John O’Neill from investingating bin Ladin’s brothers living in Virginia? That’s right, Republicans. Who obstructed the FBI’s investigation into the bin Ladins and al-Qaeda to such an extent prior to 9/11 that the FBI Director resigned in disgust claiming that the “main obstacles to investigating Islamic terrorism were U.S. oil interests and the role played by Saudi Arabia in it.” Hey, what do you know? Republicans again.
Of course, the Bush Administration has had almost two years now to catch bin Ladin, have they done it? No. In fact, I don’t hear much about him from the administration. Just their lies about Iraq.
My friend, I must concede that in hindsight, you are 100% on target.
But I ask you to consider the later Clinton years – the political climate of the day.
Obviously, asking the Taliban to deal with the problem, in whatever way, would have worked just as well as it did for GWB (who gave them a chance to do the right thing after 9/11 when the world was aghast at the attacks, without results).
So Clinton and his advisors mount an Operation Enduring Freedom of his own, in say 1998 or 1999.
The result:
The antiwar folks who opposed Bush’s wars would be out in force – supplemented by the people who “had their minds changed by 9/11” – a line I’ve heard quite a bit.
The Republican leadership would accuse him of “wagging the dog” – mounting a military campaign to camouflage their righteous wrath at his getting an adulterous blowjob – pardon me, lying under oath. (I know a few people say that and mean it seriously, and I mean no sarcasm towards them – far more, IMHO, use it to camouflage their moral indignation at his sexual escapades in a more “respectable” argument.)
Without the united we-want-revenge attitude that 9/11 engendered, he would have very little support from the average man in the street, who barely noticed either of the bombings and were probably unaware of the 1993 WTC assault if they lived outside the NYC metro area.
While I, sadly, see your point, I don’t think Clinton could have gotten adequate support for taking the necessary military action at that time, even if he had decided that it was the appropriate step to take.
The dude is a loon. You will never, ever convince him of anything, as all contradictory evidence is merely part of the conspiracy. But his facts are pure-dee crapola, so you can at least address others’ concerns with the following:
I dunno whether any of the bad guys bought their tickets under their own names, but somebody was on those planes. Body parts of several of the hijackers were also identified by DNA analysis long after the suspects were named by the government.
(a) We have seriously disrupted al Qaeda since 9/11. (b) Numerous attacks by al Qaeda have still occurred since 9/11 in countries other than the U.S.
B.F.D. You’d figure that if he was in on the conspiracy, he’d have been all over it from the get-go.
ISTR something a bunch of passengers jumping the hijackers and causing the plane to crash into an empty field somewhere. Maybe you can google up a cite on that?
Are you serious? This is a guy who “a reputation as someone who is very good at debate and always has his fact straight”? Too stupid for words.
Actually, the cockpit voice recorder on at least one of the planes has been found, and was even played to the families of the passengers. Newsweek had the goods on what it revealed (not much, except that the passengers did indeed jump the hijackers, who freaked out about it).
See 4.
See 8.
Take your pick: Cite, please? or B.F.D.
See 12.
Holy shit! 10 million executives worked in the WTC? Wow, that’s a really stupid conspiracy. Plus, cite please?
So, trained pilots couldn’t drive a plane into the side of a big-ass building? See 8.
Cite, please?
See 16.
B.F.D.
See 18.
See 12.
So Nixon’s impeachment was part of the conspiracy to blow up the WTC almost 30 years later? See 8 & 16.
Demonstably false. Afghan opium growers are doing much better since 9/11. Other than that, see 8.
That Dubya is a lying turd who likes cheap oil and the profits apurtenant thereto doesn’t demonstrate a damn thing about remote control airplanes. See 8.
Half of Daddy Bush’s Supreme Court appointees voted againt Junior. See also 23.
Utter bullshit. Al Qaeda has typically only admitted responsibility for an attack years after its occurrence. They prefer to rejoice in such attacks by praising God for smiting the infidels–as, indeed, they did in the case of 9/11–while giving wink-wink nudge-nudge credit to the individual martyrs who carried out the operation.
See 8.
Hope that helps.
[sub]Plus, you’e in Dallas now, Badtz? Good to see it. Hope to see you out at a DFW gathering soon![/sub]
You know, before I get accused of it, I don’t blame the Bush Administration for 9/11. They made some really bad mistakes, but those happen, I don’t think they did it maliciously or anything. But if you are going to start placing the blame on Clinton, then you need to shove a heap of it on Bush, too.
The charge related in the OP is nonsense, GeeDubya is most definitely not guilty! I am entirely satisfied that GeeDubya had nothing whatever to do with it. It has never been proven that GeeDubya has any connection whatsoever with Al Queda.
Further, such skullduggery could only have been accomplished with perfect secrecy and organization. GeeDubya, it has been demonstrated, could not successfully organize a surprise party for his daughter’s hamster.
I firmly stand against this unseemly episode of “Bush-bashing”.
8:46 a.m.: NORAD orders the 102nd Fighter Wing of the Otis Air National Guard Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts to scramble two of their F-15 fighters.
9:24 a.m.: NORAD orders the 1st Fighter Wing from Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Virginia to scramble two, possibly three F-16 fighters. Langley is 130 miles south of Washington D.C. and the Pentagon. The F-16 has a top speed of 1500 MPH.
So, planes were scrambled near Boston (two of the hijacked planes took off from Boston) and near Washington DC (where a third plane hit the Pentagon). I see nothing suspicious here. And these are both east coast bases.
**
False. Don Rumsfeld was AT HIS DESK when the plane struck the opposite side of the Pentagon. He was later seen on camera helping load the wounded into ambulances, much to the dismay of his aides and security personnel. (Source: CNN Presents)
Edelmiro (Ed) Abad, 54, New York, N.Y., USA
senior vice president, Fiduciary Trust International
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
Maria Rose Abad, 49, Syosset, N.Y., USA
senior vice president, Keefe, Bruyette & Woods
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
Paul Andrew Acquaviva, 29, Glen Rock, N.J., USA
eSpeed vice president of corporate development, Cantor Fitzgerald
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
Donald L. Adams, 28, Chatham, N.J., USA
vice president of sales of eSpeed division, Cantor Fitzgerald
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
Stephen Patrick Cherry, 41, Stamford, Conn., USA
partner, Cantor Fitzgerald
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
Brian Thomas Cummins, 38, Manasquan, N.J., USA
partner, Cantor Fitzgerald
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
Takashi Kinoshita, 46, Rye, N.Y.
president, Mizuho Capital Markets Corp.
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building, Japanese
Edward Joseph Mardovich, 42, Lloyd Harbor, N.Y., USA
president, Euro Brokers Inc.
Confirmed dead, World Trade Center, at/in building
And you can find many, many, many more at this site.
