["Judge not, that ye be not judged":] What Part of No Don't You Understand?

Old country song, with a point – apparently the man who’s been bugging the singer for a romantic liaison is so far gone in his own delusions of what is supposed to happen that he is not getting her clear message that she’s not interested.

In these propositions I see a very specific set of directions on how to live out one’s life, in the conduct with which one is supposed to be taking towards one’s fellow man. In particular, I see a prohibition on quoting Scripture to condemn one’s fellow man, not a directive to do it.

What think you?

I think I’m befuddled by the connection between the song and the rest of the post.

As for me, it’s the “N” part of “No” that gives me problems. It’s a funny sound and doing it for long enough makes my nose tickle. Plus I’m never sure how to pronounce an N with an umlaut over it, such as the n in “Spinal Tap.”

Ok, I get it now, it’s about what part of “don’t judge” don’t you understand. In that case, forget the first bit of the post.

Moderator’s Note: :ahem:

What part of “Please use descriptive titles when starting threads” don’t you understand? :smiley:

Edited thread title.

Sorry, MEB. :o I was, of course, playing off the song title to make a point – but you’re right; it was potentially misleading.

While we’re on the subject, however: http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/2003/06/14/

I saw that in the paper two days ago. It was thought provoking. i will reply to this topic later tonight. Now I am off to church. :slight_smile:

Polycarp, you’ve hit upon some pet topics for me.

I am accused by many of being judgmental. My reply is that all of us live and die by our judgments. You must make accurate judgments when crossing a street in order not to be hit by a moving car. You must make judgments when climbing into a vehicle as to whether its owner is sober enough to drive. I’m glad to say that I make lots of judgments each and every day. I have no problem with judging people or with them judging me.

Where problems do arise is when people prejudge others unfairly. Applying preconceived notions or impressions gained from interactions with another unrelated person is unworthy at best and usually the root of much bigotry and hatred. Permanently casting someone in the mold of impressions gathered long ago have equally little merit. This sort of prejudice I most certainly do have many problems with.

As per your usual (or perhaps I should say, unusual) enlightened take on Christian doctrine, I’ll also applaud your stance opposing the use of scripture to condemn others. There remains one tenet fundamental to all Christian religion. It is an incredibly simple equation and yet so rarely practiced by its subscribers that Christianity’s validity is frequently thrown into doubt by this glaring defect.

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

I can easily see how this one formula alone completely validates your belief that no scripture be used in the condemnation of others. If one’s own doctrine pivots upon the Golden Rule, then use of that same doctrine to the end of maltreating others is the very worst sort of hypocrisy. Sadly, I see this all the time and it remains one principal roadblock to me accepting most organized religions as valid. I realize that this probably is a case similar to one scene in Herman Hesse’s book, “Steppenwolf.”

Pablo, the suave bandleader is desperately trying to extract the story’s central figure, Harry Haller, from his hidebound shell. A small and rather marginally operative radio is playing while they chat. A beautiful piece of classical music begins to scratchily issue forth from the radio’s inadequate speaker. Pablo interrupts his conversation with Harry and calls his attention to the music. (Please forgive any inaccuracies in my quoting.)

Pablo: Harry, listen! It is the beautiful overture from Rossini’s “Otello.”

[scratchy, static filled music begins to play]

Harry: Why, it sounds just terrible!

Pablo: Listen to the music, Harry, not the radio!
That one bit of dialogue may well sum up my own potential failings in this situation too. Perhaps I am attempting to judge the worth of Christ’s words according to the sometimes ill mannered projection of them by his putative adherents. I’ll say this much, Polycarp.

You make it a lot easier to hear the music and ignore the radio than most Christians I have ever met in my entire life.

I’ve heard it said that the “judge not” thing is sometimes misinterpreted. If you make no judgments yourself, it can be said you’re abdicating your moral responsibility. On the other hand, if you take it to mean “hold yourself to the same standards to which you hold others,” it’s rather different.

I saw a new billboard on a local highway today. It simply featured the quotation from Deuteronomy that is so commonly used to condemn homosexuality. It’s a good thing I was a passenger, because I got more than sufficiently irritated to distract me, should I have been driving. Chapped my hide something fierce.

I agree with your interpretation, Polyarp. Condemnation by Scripture doesn’t sit well with me. It’s behavior like that that is driving people away from what is ideally a very loving faith.

I suppose I should throw in my favorite judgment verses when Jesus was divinely inspiring other writers in order to confuse the infidels. “Liberal” Christians can ignore them as usual.:wink:

Lev.19:15
“In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.”

Jn.7:24
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

1 Cor.2:15
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”

1 Cor.5:12-13
“For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

1 Cor.6:2-3
“Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?.”

I was just thinking of some of those scriptures myself, badchad.

Polycarp, these replies are part of why I detest most Christians.

I have a quastion for the “saints” if your God is so righteous and just, why didn’t He include a prohibition against slavery in the Bible?

Polycarp:

What is the debate here? That Christians should not quote scripture to condemn others? Is there anyone who thinks they should (even if they do it themselves)?

Maybe I’m missing out on the country song you referred to in the OP. I have no idea what that song is.

It is true that you can find justification for almost any kind of behaviour in the Bible. It was written by mortal men, during different times in history and different cultures with different beliefs about God. The Bible is not God, nor even the word of God, which would be saying the same thing. It should not be worshipped as if it were God. However, saying that does not mean it is unimportant. The Bible contains the teaching of the Master Jesus which does (if we follow it) lead us to God.

The teachings are almost always misinterpreted. People think they must run out and sacrifice themselves for the good of others. Not true. The teachings are a path for the those who want to know God. To feel His unconditional love and the safety of His presence.

Polycarp: I agree with you most of the time, but I seem to be even more liberal than you. As if “liberal” or “conservative” really describe truth. They don’t, of course.

As for judgement, means to criticize, condemn, or deem unworthy of God’s love anyone holding beliefs dissimilar to ours.

There is no person living anywhere in the world, believing any religion or no religion that is unworthy of God’s love and safety.
God loves us all the same and does not condemn any of us for anything. He stands by us through anything and everything that can possible happen. We, on the other hand, have been known to desert Him. He waits patiently for our return.

Love
Leroy

Thank you, lekatt .

One of the most thought-provoking parables in the Christian Bible (for me) is:

"Not everyone who says unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the work of my father"

Quite a thought-provoking statement!

My Lord bids me to make judgments. He requires it of me, as a living testament to my faith in Him. It is my duty to judge all aspects of my life by His divine example. I fall short of this at every turn, and in every act of my life. Because I am so unworthy of His love, all the more do I love Him because He loves me still, and gives to me Salvation and life eternal.

I am not directed to judge the souls of others. I am not ordered to go into the world and reveal the sins of my fellow men. I am told to go forth and give the joyous news that the Judge of Man is Christ, risen from death, to atone for the sin of all. To speak of the sins of those whom Jesus has forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit of the Love of God. Who is the judge of my fellow man? Not I, but the Lord who made us all.

And what if my fellow man comes to me and asks of me the way to Salvation? I shall give to him the Word. And the Word shall dwell in his heart, and make him free. I will not speak to him of sin, and of his failings. I will speak to him of the love God has for him, and the love I have for him. And if this brother of mine is a sinner, as I am, then we shall rejoice together, that two so unworthy as we have but to kneel and pray, and we are exalted above the angels, and sanctified in the eyes of God, because the Lord has atoned for our weaknesses, and made us pure.

Sin is not the point. Glorious joy beyond measure is the point. Who is right and who is wrong is not the point. We are all wrong, and but for the rightness of God we would perish in world of our own self made misery. But God is. And we are saved by His grace, beyond any worth of our own.

Read the book. Love the Lord. Love his children, each and every one. Be and do what you know is right, and do not seek reward on earth for righteousness. This is small place, with tiny glories, and quickly tarnished treasures. Spend your efforts making your own little corner of the world more loving, and more kind. Heaven awaits, and its glories are beyond our poor imaginings.

Tris

“Pull the string, and it will follow wherever you wish. Push it, and it will go nowhere at all.” ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

Triskadecamus:

Very well said! You have hit the nail on the head: one is to judge only oneself; never to judge another.

badchad, thanks for posting the verses which may seem to support judgment of others. They present examples of how the Bible contradicts itself. The two verses below are examples:

The first verse quoted is from the Old Testament. To me it can be interpreted to mean either:

  1. It is righteous to judge thy neighbor or
  2. Only if you are perfect should you judge your neighbor.

If the first interpretation is correct, then it contradicts the New Testament verse that says Do not judge. If the second interpretation is correct, no one should be judging anyone because none of us are perfect.

When I find contradictory verses, I try to consider the source. The Old Testament was written before the birth of Jesus. For me, any teaching from the New Testament outweighs the Old.

Some of your quotations were from Paul – a man who admited to making many mistakes. If Paul said that we should judge each other, I think he was mistaken.

Only one of the quotations concerning judgment was said to have been spoken by Jesus. That is the one that makes the most sense to me.

Zenster:

Zenster, isn’t there a difference in being discerning and in being judgmental? When I read “Judge not,” I am thinking that the verse is about not judging other people’s worthiness or unworthiness as if I were some kind of gods myself. It doesn’t mean that I won’t make judgments regarding the person I marry or the people I allow to babysit with my grandchildren.

In reading through several threads on Christianity in the last few months, I know that for whatever reason, there are some Christians here whose love I do not feel.

You know what these verses all have in common? Jesus didn’t say them.

Diogenes the Cynic:

You know what these verses all have in common? Jesus didn’t say them.

Yeah huh. When Jesus was allegedly god he was divinely inspiring his favorite people to copy it down for him. I think it’s what he did for fun in between smiting.

Of course, if Jesus wasn’t god then who gives a rats tail what he said.

Either way I don’t see any refuge for the liberal believers.