I met this Saudi Arabian guy the other day. He’s been in the U.S. for less than a year, but says he’s planning to stay permanently now. He seems very nice, successful, smart. But Saudi Arabia. I wouldn’t be worried about a man from all Middle Eastern countries, but that one is really something else.
I have no doubt there are Saudi Arabian men who are against their country’s treatment of women, among other things, but doesn’t it seem like those men would volunteer that info right up front, knowing that of course an American woman is going to wonder? He’d have to be vehemently opposed to all of that stuff to be okay with me, and even then, being raised in that society, something is going to get internalized. But he just said it the same way you’d say you were from Sacramento or something. Well, he did ask me if I knew about it, and I said I knew some but not a ton, and that was it.
I could just ask him directly about these things, and I suppose I will, but as I said, some of it is just things people internalize and so his answer wouldn’t necessarily be 100% reliable, and also I don’t want to ask in an offensive way, or keep harping on it or anything.
I know the U.S. is fucked up in plenty of ways too. But still…Saudi Arabia?
I’d have some of the same concerns about possible internalized misogyny, as well as being from a country that is generally pretty religious and insular.
I wouldn’t say it’s completely impossible that I would consider dating a hypothetical man from Saudi Arabia, but it’s probably unlikely. Points in his favor would be if he came over here at a younger age, or if he is an atheist or from a family or area in Saudi Arabia that is less religious or more progressive, or he is is not a Sunni/Wahhabist.
Also, as you say it would be difficult upon meeting him to have a discussion about his personal beliefs and convictions that would be totally reliable. Not that I would expect deception, but it’s likely that he might have internalized and subconscious beliefs that would end up being dealbreakers for me. So I don’t think I would date a man from Saudi Arabia with only a brief introduction (e.g. online dating or meeting somewhere). But I would consider dating him if I met him through friends or work and got to know him over an extended period of time, and if there were no red flags in that time.
That’s true too. But he did mention some international traveling he’s done, and he’s educated (educated in Saudi Arabia though) so maybe he’s more enlightened than some.
I guess I need to just come right out and ask him about religion. But you know any Middle Easterner in the U.S. faces discrimination on a regular basis and I don’t want to look like I’m adding to that. I’m not really (I don’t think…maybe kind of) because I wouldn’t date a devout follower of any religion, but I wouldn’t expect him to take it that way.
Yeah, I just met this guy when he came up to talk to me at my work, which is retail. He said he wants someone to practice speaking English with (he’s reasonably proficient but needs more practice before enrolling in a masters program), and that he could also teach me Arabic, but it’s obvious that’s not all he’s interested in.
Unlike the men I normally date, he wasn’t being at all pushy though. And I haven’t seen any other red flags, although granted it hasn’t been very long.
I had a close female friend a long time ago whose parents came from a third-worldish country. That country had a culture with views about the role and behaviour of women that would be more conservative than Australian views although not enormously so. That country’s culture would be positively shining with enlightenment compared to Saudi culture.
My friend’s parents came to Australia a couple of decades prior to me knowing them. The father was an academic and in theory was quite the enlightened liberal new age man.
He also, in private, became enraged if he found out his daughter was not conforming to the mores of where he grew up.
Through this friend I knew many other young women and men from the same cultural background. They had similar stories to tell.
I think our cultural programming about things very close to our hearts like attitudes to women in general and wives and daughters in particular is very hard to shake. I’d be exercising extreme caution.
Everything I’ve heard about Japanese and Indian men who move to a modern nation is that no matter how progressive they are, once things get serious, their upbringing starts to kick in.
Unless the idea of being a demure, conservative baby-raiser appeals to you strongly, I’d take the view that there’s plenty of fish in the sea and most of the other ones are going to have the same views on the future relationship as you.
How is judging someone’s character on where they are from any less offensive than race or religion etc?
I’d say you have no clue what the dude is like, and guessing based on his country of origin is pointless. Some things might be more likely, but by no means certain.
Probably not less offensive, but if he’s inclined to be the type Betty Mahmoody ran into, who gives a flying fig about offending the misogynist, controlling, wife-beating bastard?
Guessing his thoughts on economics based on whether he’s from Germany or France? Probably pointless. Guessing his attitude toward women based on his being from Saudi Arabia? A whole lot closer to certain than you acknowledge.
Someone’s culture is the prime indicator for how they are likely to behave in certain situations. A huge majority of Saudi men would either require a woman to convert to Islam for a long term relationship or go in with the presumption that a western woman is bound to be, at best, easy. Of course most people here are going to have a very different moral compass compared to people who were born and raised in one of the most socially regressive parts of the world.
This doesn’t preclude the guy from being a shining paragon of open, liberal thought, but that’s not the way to bet. I’d ask him about religion right up front. He’d probably be happy to discuss his views - most of the people I’ve met who are Saudis are pretty up front about it. Of course, in their eyes they are the norm and the rest of us are odd. That’s the way the world tends to work. We are all products of our environment and experiences.
I’d like to add that to me, the Betty Mahmoody case is not an indictment of Muslim men, but rather an indictment of the Iranian legal system. Every country in the world has its controlling abusive religious nutbags. The problem is, in Iran - and I suspect, Saudi Arabia as well - these assholes tend to receive the full backing of the law.
I agree with your reservations, I would have the same. I once dated a guy from India who was really really into “western culture” as he called it, but yes, he had a lot of internalized ideas regarding women.
However, isn’t dating just, you know, dating. It’s not like if you go for a coffee and some English practice you thereby agree to marry him. I say, date him, and if you find you’re not compatible because of cultural or otherwise, stop dating.
You just met him a few days ago, so it is a little early to worry about “getting involved”, isn’t it? Just go out with him a few times and see what he is like as an individual. Man, you could have some great conversations - “I’m curious why you, as a Saudi citizen, would rather live in America permanently. What has made you decide that?” “You know, people in America make so many assumptions about Saudi Arabia, even though they’ve never been there. What do you think about it? For example, I’ve heard that women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to drive. Is that true? Do you agree with it?”
The guy could be the most open-minded, progressive thinker you’d ever want to meet, or he could buy into the Saudi attitude toward women completely. The only way to find out is to talk to him. No matter what he says, if he is interested in genuine dialog you could have some really memorable, enjoyable, and mind-expanding dates. And if he’s not interested in talking about ideas-- pfft, who cares if he’s from Saudi or the apartment next door, he doesn’t sound worth getting involved with.
Seriously the guy left Saudi Arabia, he hopes permanently, I’m guessing he isn’t your average country bumpkin in his views.
I’m from the USA and there is no shortage of wife beaters and misogynists and controlling guys, the chances are good that any guy you date will have some misogynist viewpoints even if they are pretty harmless(women suck at XXXX).
The child custody thing is more of an issue facing all dual citizen children and marriages, most countries are not going to make it easy to contest custody of a citizen child by a foreigner. Everyone should keep that in mind, but don’t let it cloud your judgement.
It doesn’t really matter whether he personally plans to stay in the US. If he is Saudi then if his father calls him back to to his home to get married then he is going. (or will be choosing a life forever disowned by his family) That is an incredible pressure for a guy in a foreign country.
He can marry you a non muslim if you are “a child of the book” that means a jew or xtian. Interesting to note that If you were male then you cannot marry a female muslim without converting.
Don’t worry about whether he drinks or fasts ( in my experience) arabs overseas are like any other guys. Its not unusual to see middle eastern guys drink, and partake in western cultural pastimes.
Its a different matter back at home. He may be liberated and fully desirous and supportive of having an independent partner. The laws of his land will not let him do that and in Saudi you will be severely restricted in what you can do.
But his family is going to be incredibly strong as a force in his life and if they are in Saudi then am guessing anything but a Saudi female is going to be acceptable.
Guys may profess to champion female emancipation but when their cultural history is all about subjugating females then you have an awful lot of history to overcome.
Missed the edit window. I need correct my assertion that only Saudi brides will suffice. Apparently a quick google search reveals that there is a market in mail order brides from Yemen and Indonesia for Saudi males. Who’d a thunk it?