What's Wrong with the Results from Spain?

Let me put it as clearly as I can.

According to Dogface’s simplification, Al Qaeda asks X for something, bombs X, and then X does as asked: This is appeasement. It does not matter if there is another explanation for X’s action, ie. if it is a coincidence that X does what it was asked to do - the direct line of causation still stands.

AQ asks US to withdraw from Saudi. Bombs US. US withdraws (because US government thought deploying troops there unnecessary).

AQ asks Spain to withdraw from Iraq. Bombs Spain. Spain withdraws (because Spanish government thinks deploying troops there unnecessary).

Do you understand?

You almost have it right.

Change “AQ asks Spain to withdraw from Iraq. Bombs Spain. Spain withdraws (because Spanish government thinks deploying troops there unnecessary)”

to

AQ asks Spain to withdraw from Iraq. Bombs Spain. As result of bombing Spanish electorate chooses a government that withdraws (because Spanish government thinks deploying troops there unnecessary)

Without the US bombing, the US might still have troops in Saudi. (I doubt it, because plans for invading Iraq were set forth before 9/11).

Without the Spain bombing, Spain might still have troops in Iraq. (I doubt it, because PP would likely not have got enough votes to form a government anyway).

In both cases, the bombing might have effected the withdrawal. But in both cases this would be a coincidence.

Aznar was not in trouble solely because of the bombing - he was in trouble because the electorate thought the troops in Iraq should not be there. It was a coincidence that AQ wanted them out of Iraq, as it was a coincidence that AQ wanted US troops out of Saudi.

A very well timed, easily solved coincidence

But, given that the bombers were responsible for the timing, a coincidence nonetheless, agreed?

If the basis of your coincidence is that the ruling party would have lost any way, Then I agree. Except for dopers here trying to prove a point I have not read or heard anything that would indicate that the ruling party would have lost.

Well then, the burden of proof would similarly be on you to show that the US would have invaded Iraq and withdrawn from Saudi Arabia anyway, without 9/11.

There is no doubt in my mind we would have invaded Iraq if 9/11 had not happened. Probably sooner than we did. I am not happy the way the Spanish vote went but am not surprised or blame the Spanish voters. I don’t think they are wimps or pussies as posted on another board. I will just restate what I said earlier that I thought it was very worrisome that Al Queda could have the effect on an election that they had.

Then the burden of proof will, again, be on the person making such a claim (ie. you) to show that the Spanish electorate voted that way because of Al Qaeda’s wishes, not merely because the bomb highlighted the issue of Iraq, about which the electorate’s wishes coincided with Al Qaeda’s.

No. I never argued that the people of Spain acted on AlQueda’s wishes. I argued that the bombing had an effect on the election. On Wednesday of last week Iraq did not seem to be enough of an issue that would topple the government.

The presence of US troops have long been a source of tension for the Saudi Arabian government. The fact that the royal family had allowed foreign infidels so close to the muslim holy sites had been a rallying cry to their opponents. This move was more of an attempt to assist them than a result of the attacks. IIRC, plans had been made for them to be removed before 9/11.

Rashak Mani

[Moderator Hat ON]

NO insults here!

[Moderator Hat OFF]

Sorry I’ll stick to indirect insults… I guess his mentality is part of him.

Does this mean we can do indirect personal insults ? :slight_smile: (Serious question)

I’ve see comments here to the effect that the Iraq war did not aid the War on Terror, hence for Spain to withdraw its support will not aid the War on Terror; in fact, it may actually help anti-terrorism efforts by focusing attention on more serious threats.

The problem, for those who think the results of the Spanish election do not aid Al Queda, is that you’re trying to analyze events from the perspective of a reasonable person, focusing on direct cause and effect relationships. Unfortunately, we’re not fighting people who think that way. All that matters, from the terrorist perspective, is that by attacking Spain they changed the results of an election. It makes little difference wether the new government will be better or worse for them than the old government, because at least they made a difference. It doesn’t even matter wether it’s true that Spanish voters kicked out their government out of fear or more attacks, or even wether the ruling party would have lost anyway had the attacks not occurred. All that matters is that it will be spun that way in the press. Arab news sources aren’t going to expand lots of effort analyzing the issues involved. They’ll write about a terrorist attack and an electoral defeat and stop there, and the “Arab street” will get the impression that Al Queda caused the fall of the Spanish government.

The only way we can win this war is by causing the Muslim world in general to lose respect for Al Queda and the tactics they employ. We’ve been making progress on this front by continuing to do whatever the hell we want, especially when it appears to go against the interests of the people and countries Al Queda claims to be fighting for. They’ve killed a lot of people, but until now they haven’t appeared to have caused any of the forces on our side to retreat. The Spanish election result is disastrous because it creates a situation where terrorist tactics appear to have been successful in making a European country change its government. This will encourage more respect for Al Queda in the Arab world and hence more people will be willing to actively or passively assist them. It will encourage them to try similar tactics in the future.

Here’s full disclosure: I think Bush is a terrible president. He’s deceitful and incompetent to a degree unprecedented in recent history. I believe the war in Iraq is justified despite his lies, but the fact that he lied to justify it is disgraceful. I can’t imagine any possible circumstances under which I would vote for any candidate but the one most likely to defeat him. Nonetheless, I acknowledge that any Kerry victory will appear to be at least a small win for Al Queda. It will be a great victory for our enemies indeed if he wins only because a major terrorist attack a few days before the election causes people who would have supported Bush to change their minds!

This is unlikely to happen—Americans are not Europeans, and I suspect the effect of any new terrorist outrage would be overwhelmingly to Bush’s benefit. Nonetheless, any Bush defeat following an attack would comfort our enemies. I think a second Bush presidency would be more harmful to our country and the world than a somewhat reinvigorated terrorist threat, so I fully intend to vote against him despite the cost, come what may, but I don’t try to pretend that that cost doesn’t exist. I hope the terrorists would be rudely disillusioned when President Kerry carries the fight to them and their supporters at least as vigorously as the current administration, but they would still have at least temporarily the appearance of a victory, and the harm caused by that appearance would linger.

In a struggle of this nature, where the battle for hearts and minds is a crucial factor, appearance is just as important as reality. We must remember that a propaganda victory can be more influential in the long run than a material one.

Not to question the will of the mods or anything, but how come Dogface didn’t get similarly reprimanded for calling Rashak a “cheerleader for Al Qaeda”?

Ah, so rather than vote to take the path that they consider best for their democracy, the spaniards should have voted to appease the Arab world’s least common denominator.
When has coddling the ignorant ever produced a good result?

Right on. But I think that, far from “caving in”, the Spanish antiterrorism effort will gain strength. We should keep track of the upcoming "conference of antiterror experts from major EU countries to discuss information sharing and coordination of future activities. Interior Minister Angel Acebes announced that move: “We have called a meeting for the coming days of the most important antiterrorist services from the European Union who will meet here in Madrid. This will be to coordinate investigations and efforts, to exchange information, and to plan for the future.” "

From http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/3/04B83095-973C-4F62-8011-8980CD51D6C3.html