10 commandments

Great Debates
81

From that same [url=http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp?CategoryID=2]Barna Research[/ur] page on which we agreed on the 85% Christian thing.

OK, add the Mormons in there and you are talking some where in the neigborhood of 2.5% of the population.

Let me turn andros’ earlier question to me back to the rest of you. He asked:

[quote]
Again, can we then also display the Pillars of Islam on the walls as well? And excerpts from the Talmud and the Book of Mormon?

How about writings from the Satanic Bible? It’s not hurting anyone, it’s just posted up on the wall, right?

[quote]

Esprix weighed in above with what I expect will be his answer here, that SOCAS would prohibit all of these. Tell, me honestly, would each of you be as adamantly opposed to any one of those posted on the wall of a public school as you are against the 10 Commandments? I certainly hope so, or else you are showing an extremely unfair bias against Christianity for apparently no other reason than it is Christianity.

Keenan wrote, in part:

[quote]
not because I think the Commandments are bad rules, but because they are put forth as a religious solution to our social ills.

[quote]

A bit off topic, but this 10C issue aside for the moment, I guess it wouldn’t suprise you that I feel that religion, specifically spirituality of some kind or another, is a primary solution to our social ills? Think about it - the vast majority of crime commited is by those that have little or no spirituality in their lives at all, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, you name it.

David B wrote:

Sure better than telling them anything they want to do is OK, or atleast giving them that inpression by not having anything in the way of real discipline. Ideally it’s the parent’s job to teach right and wrong and moral values. Unfortunately, there are so many lousy parents out there that don’t give a damn about their kids or what they do. Morality has to be taught somewhere and sadly it’s falling on the backs of the schools and they are doing nearly as poor a job as those parents are.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

82

Pardon my lousy UBB skills tonight… let’s try it again:

From that same Barna Research page on which we agreed on the 85% Christian thing.

OK, add the Mormons in there and you are talking some where in the neigborhood of 2.5% of the population.

Let me turn andros’ earlier question to me back to the rest of you. He asked:

Esprix weighed in above with what I expect will be his answer here, that SOCAS would prohibit all of these. Tell, me honestly, would each of you be as adamantly opposed to any one of those posted on the wall of a public school as you are against the 10 Commandments? I certainly hope so, or else you are showing an extremely unfair bias against Christianity for apparently no other reason than it is Christianity.

Keenan wrote, in part:

A bit off topic, but this 10C issue aside for the moment, I guess it wouldn’t suprise you that I feel that religion, specifically spirituality of some kind or another, is a primary solution to our social ills? Think about it - the vast majority of crime commited is by those that have little or no spirituality in their lives at all, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, you name it.

David B wrote:

Sure better than telling them anything they want to do is OK, or atleast giving them that inpression by not having anything in the way of real discipline. Ideally it’s the parent’s job to teach right and wrong and moral values. Unfortunately, there are so many lousy parents out there that don’t give a damn about their kids or what they do. Morality has to be taught somewhere and sadly it’s falling on the backs of the schools and they are doing nearly as poor a job as those parents are.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

83

MKM said:

Ah, I didn’t realize those were the only two options:

A) Post the 10 Commandments
B) Have no discipline

Hmmm. Seems to me we might be forgetting a few other possibilities. But who am I to doubt you?

Indeed it is. So who are you to try to post your commandments, which may conflict with those taught at home?

So that means you have to take their place?

I have no problem with teaching that stealing is wrong, murder is wrong, etc. I mean, if a kid steals in school, he should get in trouble. But that is quite a different subject than posting the 10 Commandments (whichever 10 you decide are “the” 10, of course). And if you think that just teaching or posting “don’t steal” is going to change anything, you’re living in a fantasy world.

84

Fortunately, other religions in the US aren’t quite as pushy as Christianity, and aren’t always trying to sneak their religion into our public schools. But I’d be opposed to posting any single one of ‘em, or only a select few. If you really have to post one, you better post every mother-lovin’ one of 'em: the Rede, the pillars, the 10c, the 613 mitzvot, the Holy Note Cards of the IPU, The Satanic Bible’s moral code, the Eightfold Path, etc., etc.; and the other great works of morality as well, both secular and non-: the Humanist manifesto, Confucius, Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Spinoza, Locke, Kant, Schopenhauer, Mill, Bentham, James, Dewey, Russell, Heraclitus. Russell’s Why I Am Not a Christian has some lovely bits on morality. Heck, we won’t even need wallpaper, we’ll have so many moral rules posted!

“A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior deteriorated after “born again” experiences. While only 4% of respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being “born again,” 12% had done so after conversion. Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before conversion, 9% after. Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex before salvation; 5% after.”[“Freethought Today”, September 1991] :smiley: I won’t give you too much grief about this, since most people get “born again” in their teens; kind of a rough time.

Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her.

85

David,

Would you mind answering the question I posed above?

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

86

Oh, but you forget that the Bible was used as a teaching tool for the greater part of this nations heritage in the public school. I’m not saying I want that, but to say that Christianity is trying to “sneak” into the schools is a fallacy. It was there all along and is really just trying to retain some type of presence. Again, I am not advocating Christianity, or any religion being taught - I’m giving you the viewpoint of many Christians who are tired of their faith being the punching bag of the ACLU.

yeah, yeah… I get the picture :wink: I really do hope that is your view and not what I suspect about most people who are against the 10C. Maybe it’s a misconception of mine, but I have an overwhelming impression that most people against the 10C or prayer in school are opposed to it simply because it’s Christian and wouldn’t care one iota if it were any other religion doing it.

Your last part there is right on target. Most who claim a “born again” experience, claim it to be in their teens. Whether or not that is true, that’s not to say that they have true spirituality. I know I was “saved” (had my “born again experience”) when I was 11 but my faith never grew until after that episode I mentioned earlier and I was into my 20’s before I really became spiritual in my Christianity. I can tell you that since that has happened, I have been extremely less likely to do something foolish or illegal than before that moment.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

87

Seriously, I don’t think most people against the 10c are Christian-bashers. I admit, Christians are the most vocal, numerous and powerful religion, and they tend to use that power against people who believe differently; this can give others a bad image of them. I mean, I don’t see Buddhists trying to get the Eightfold path into the public schools. I don’t see Jews picketing gay funerals. I don’t see Wiccans trying to their religious creation story taught in public schools. Is it any wonder a lot of people can have a jaundiced view of Christians, and tend to be wary when the Christians want “just one little thing” in public schools? Even so, a lot of the people in this thread against the posting of the 10c are Christian (and thank the IPU for people like them).

FWIW, I am as against posting “you should not worship the Christian God” in public schools as I am against posting “you should worship the Christian God”. The ACLU has also defended the right of schoolchildren to carry Bibles in school, and I heartily approve.

'Sides, the whole “let’s post moral rules on the walls of our schools and kids will become moral” smacks of sympathetic magic to me. If I post “I deserve a fat raise” on the walls of my office, will my boss give me one? :smiley: You may say, “can’t hurt, might help” about posting moral rules, but I shudder when I think the of the forests leveled to provide the paper for all proposals of which moral laws to post (Didja know there are three offical versions of the 10c alone? I suppose you probably do. :D) Then the laws need to passed, voted on, approved (on the federal, state and local level)…the time and effort involved…oy. And then one parent objects to one thing from the Satanic Bible, but the rest want it in, and they all fight about it… I think I’d rather spend the time and money on parenting classes that teach the parents good methods of discipline (“No, you can’t ignore a kid for weeks at a time and expect him to raise himself!”).

88

MKM asked:

Of course! In case you forgot, the 10 Commandments originated with the Jewish religion, after all. While you may try to play the poor, oppressed Christian, those of us in favor of church/state separation are in favor of it for all religions, not just yours.

Yes, it’s a misconception of yours.

Now, are you planning to answer my questions about why you think you have to take over parenting for other people’s kids?

89

David B. wrote:

And where did I say that? I didn’t! You made the sarcastic comment that just telling kids not to kill and steal and everything will be OK. I countered with that it was a start and went on to say that it was better than doing nothing which is a real problem in todays society with lousy parents. I said that sadly it was falling on the schools to teach morality not that they should have to. I never said that’s the way it should be. In fact if you look again, I said that it should be the parents responsibility.

If you go back and read what I said, and quit putting words in my mouth like you are so want to do with me, David, you would see that. You wouldn’t still be sore at me for setting Ol’ Daniel Schwarr straight on another 10C discussion over at LBMB would you? You know, the one where you were dead wrong about the Judge Roy Moore case in Alabama?

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

90

TWEEEEEET!!!

Ok, folks, back to your corners, and take a deep breath. Anything that has occurred in the past needs to stay there.
MKM, I can tell you right now that I am adamantly opposed to the mandatory posting of the Ten Commandments in any public place, especially in schools.

But (listen closely, please) that doesn’t mean I hate Christianity.

Once more, with feeling–just because I disagree with you does not mean I’m an evil anti-Christian bigot.

Do you see how you might have gotten a few people a little irritated with that implication? Telling us that we only go after the 10C because it’s Christian is a slap in the face. In essence you’re calling us nothing more than religous bigots. You’re welcome to believe that, but you have to realize we’ll be offended by it.

-andros-

91

MKM:

Several people asked if you’d be opposed to the mandatory posting of another religion’s commandments on public school walls. Specifically, passages from the Satanic Bible.

You didn’t answer, but instead asked us if we would object to these things ourselves.

My answer is yes, of course I would object. I really believe in the separation of church and state, as a mechanism for ensuring that no one’s religious views are squelched by the government. I would never tolerate the implicit governmental acceptance of one religion over another, by mandating its laws be posted in schools.

Now it’s your turn to answer. Would you object to another religion’s creed being posted in public schools? (I think an excerpt from the Satanic Bible would be most appropriate, since the 10C specifically claims that worshiping other gods is wrong, and I can’t think of any religious texts except the Satanic Bible that claim worshiping YHWH is wrong.) So if some joker wanted to post excerpts from the Satanic Bible in schools, I’d object. Would you?

If so, why is that different from posting the 10C?

Please answer this. I sincerely want to know your answer.

Your Quadell

92

I answered in my 4/6/00 2:19pm post in the last sentence of that post

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

93

Q: Is it ok?
A:

94

I guess I just find that hard to believe, Mike.

If you found out that your child’s classroom had another religion’s moral code written on the walls you wouldn’t mind?

-andros-

95

MKM, you were right and caught me being a little imprecise. I said my problem with the 10C is that they’re presented as a religious solution to our social ills, when I should have said the religious solution. That’s the effect of having the state favor one set of religious rules over any other.

A whole other can of worms is opened by this debate. The argument that our social ills would be remedied by the posting of the Ten Commandments is based on a lot of assumptions that not everyone is willing to make.

Those assumptions include:
[list]
[li]Our societal problems are worse than they’ve ever been[/li][li]The primary cause of these problems is a decline in religious belief[/li][li]You can’t lead a moral life without religious belief[/li][li]Morals can’t be taught without reference to religion[/li][li]The Judeo-Christian ethic provides the best solution to our social ills[/li][li]Specifically, the Ten Commandments offer the majority of what you need to live a moral life[/li][li]There is complete agreement on all moral issues not specifically covered by the Ten Commandments[/li]
In fact (man, I should think more before I start posting) I can’t think of any major social ills that can be solved by the simple posting of the Ten Commandments. Okay, kids killing classmates – but I’ll argue that it’s pretty clear that murder is a more serious problem that doesn’t result from our “if it feels good, do it” ethos but comes from some serious pathology. But teen pregnancy isn’t covered by a commandment. Drug use isn’t covered by a commandment. Hell, not even homosexuality is covered by a commandment (if you consider that a social ill … I’d better Ask the Gay Guy). The reason I’m disturbed by the posting of the Ten Commandments is because they really need their religious context if they’re going to solve the social ills you want to fix – and then you’re crossing the church/state boundary again.

And the separation of church and state which I’m defending is not hostile to religion; it partly exists to preserve your religious freedom from the tyranny of a state-favored religion. Now, if your religion is the majority religion, yes, this “fair-play” can seem really unfair to you. But it really is for the best.

96

MKM wrote:

Hell yes! Even if it were my own little UU Purposes & Principles.

Now, I don’t know if this will surprise you or not, but I agree with you here! I’ve always felt that a little more spirituality and community and a little less selfishness would improve everyone’s lot, and society’s as a whole. But I do not think this should be done in school - that’s what churches are for. :slight_smile:

Really? I think the schools are doing a fine job.

And this is the problem - your moral values are simply not mine, so who is to decide which of ours should be taught to all the children in a classroom? The basic we agree on - do not kill, steal, lie - and those are taught to greater or lesser extents. It’s the religious morals that are in question.

I think you’re way off base here. If any group wanted to post their moral doctrine in a school there is always going to be someone who is in total disagreement with their list, be it Christian, Jewish, Satanist, Humanist or even - {gasp!} - UU! :smiley:

Gaudere wrote:

Agreed.

Hear, hear! Goes back to having a license to carry a baby, IMHO (but there’s an entirely different thread for that).

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

97

[quote]
Originally posted by andros:
**I guess I just find that hard to believe, Mike.

If you found out that your child’s classroom had another religion’s moral code written on the walls you wouldn’t mind?

[QUOTE]

I didn’t say I wouldn’t mind, but don’t think I’d be threatened. You see, it goes back to my responsibility as a parent to see that my children are brought up in the way I deem right and proper for them. My daughter, at 4 years old, already knows the true meaning of Christmas and Easter (and we’re not talking Santa Clause and the Easter Bunnie, though they still do play a role, at this age) and why Jesus died for her and everone elses sins. She may not fully comprehend it yet, but she knows what its about. So for her to go to a public school and see something that goes against her faith, she’d either question it or laugh at it.

Now, my whole point all along is that I don’t see why those who don’t want their kids to see the 10 commandments couldn’t be any different - that is raising their kids in the way that they see fit so that it they shouldn’t feel threatened by them.

Keenan wrote:

But, again, I never made the claim that posting the 10 Commandments would solve social ills. I did say I didn’t see how they could hurt anything in that regard, because something is better than nothing.

Esprix wrote:

Uh oh… we agree… what did I do wrong! :wink: As for the schools teaching spirituality, we also agree - that’s why my comment there said something to the effect of “this 10 C discussion aside for the moment…” meaning that I was speaking in general terms.

Again, I wasn’t saying that the schools should be doing this. I said that it was a sad fact that it is falling on the schools to do it because so many parents are falling down in their duties - not that the schools should have to. If the teachers could get back to the actual teaching of the “three R’s” and away from spending half their time trying to get order in their classroom, we might actually get our education system back in shape.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

98

A bigot posted:

Apparently you’re unaware of the FACT that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are, in fact, Christians. Just because they’re not your particular flavour of Christianity does not mean that they are not Christian. Youre assertion that they aren’t, however, proves you to be a bigot.

Regarding the assertion about not having the Holy Bible taught in the public schools: Right, uh uh. I don’t buy it. After all, so many Fundamentalists demand that what’s contained in that book be taught in the schools as fact. Or are you forgetting the Evolution vs. Creationism debate?

99

Monty quietly stated:

What a shining example of… well… I’m really not sure, what it is an example of…

Peace.

† Jon †
Phillipians 4:13

100

MKM: Iam surprised that they let you get away with your assertion that more crimes are committed by non-religous than by religous. The number of people murdered in the name of religion WAY exceed the number of people murdered in a crime. Can you show ANY statistic that would indicate that Christians commit less crime?

Teaching morals in school is one thing. Teaching “Christian values” is another.
Hey, lets put Torquemada in charge of our schools! He was a GREAT believer in Christian values!

I am not bashing Christains here, I am just saying that they have the same capacity for crime as any others.