10 commandments

Great Debates
101

I’m not without sympathy for you here, Mike - I believe that there’s a significant societal interest in making sure that kids receive a certain basic level of education and guidance, regardless of whether their parents are willing to provide it. And even when parents are willing and able, a little help from the society as a whole can be a good thing. (It takes a village! :))

But the lack of sincerity of the Christian right’s motivations on this issue seem to shine through loud and clear, in that they want The Ten Commandments posted - not any set of ethical rules that could gain the concurrence of the wider community, and would be independent of any particular religious system, but that would convey essentially the same ethical message as Commandments 5 through 10.

I think Esprix nailed it when he said:

And to the extent that it’s about posting specifically the Commandments, I have to say what I’ve said in other discussions about the why of the Commandment posting: it’s about marking territory. Nothing more, nothing less. This is an attempt by the religious conservatives to ‘claim the schools for Jesus’, but in a way that gets the message across to everyone else that they’ve done so, and we’d best not forget it.

I’m hardly anti-Christian; I’ve known the Lord for what will be thirty years this fall. But as one who sees things very differently from Falwell, Robertson, and the rest of that crew, I interpret this sort of thing as a hostile act, an unwillingness on their part to share the public square equally, not only with non-Christians, but with Christians like me who don’t see the world the same way they do.

Does that make sense?

102

BTW, I’ve often wondered, where’s ‘WWJD’ in the midst of these things? For instance, would Jesus insist on accomplishing things by the most disputatious way possible, if there were more agreeable ways to accomplish the same purpose? Would Jesus hypocritically say that it’s not about religion, and then insist that what gets posted is a list specifically identified with one religious tradition?

Somehow, I don’t think so. So why the Sam Hill do people styling themselves as Christians feel the need to do so?

103

I don’t think anyone here would be “threatened” by the Ten Commandments, for the same reasons you wouldn’t be - everyone tries to be good parents and raise their kids with their own religious values. But, like you, they’d still mind. The clear implication would be that that religion’s values are endorsed by that school, and you wouldn’t like the Buddhists doing it just as much as Jews wouldn’t like the Christians to do it.

And again, we agree that the possibility of having something is not such a bad idea, but agreeing on what that something would be might take us until our kids graduate from graduate school! :slight_smile:

I think that’s one of the signs of the Apocolypse, isn’t it? :smiley:

We might disagree on how to attain this goal, but at least we agree it’s a goal worth attaining!

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

104

Although I’ll caveat by reminding you that not all Christians are Jeezers, does this really surprise you - hypocrisy in the name of religious zeal? Where have you been since the dawn of man? :smiley:

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

105

I had asked MKM: “Now, are you planning to answer my questions about why you think you have to take over parenting for other people’s kids?” He responded:

Actually, you made a false dichotomy between posting the 10 Commandments and just telling kids that anything is ok. I pointed that out; you didn’t respond. You also said:

I responded: “Indeed it is. So who are you to try to post your commandments, which may conflict with those taught at home?” You didn’t respond. You also said:

I responded: “So that means you have to take their place?” You never answered. You also said:

I responded: "I have no problem with teaching that stealing is wrong, murder is wrong, etc. I mean, if a kid steals in school, he should get in trouble. But that is quite a different subject than posting the 10 Commandments (whichever 10 you decide are “the” 10, of course). And if you think that just teaching or posting “don’t steal” is going to change anything, you’re living in a fantasy world.
[/quote]
You, of course, never responded. Now, this is all quite different than your version of what happened, quoted above. I didn’t put words in your mouth – I asked you to explain your own words, and you ignored it. So we can draw one of two conclusions from this: You can’t support what you said, or you won’t support what you said. Which is it?

Oh, and you also brought up, from the dim past:

Frankly, I’d forgotten it. I mean, it’s not like you’ve done anything to make me take you seriously, Mike. As far as that case, I started to look for info to back me up, but when I realized that it would be gone in a few days when the LBMB board folks got rid of the thread, I didn’t think it was worth my effort. Besides, even if you are right, so what? That would mean you saw an article that I didn’t, and you were able to back up one out of about a thousand claims you made. Whoop-de-doo. I mean, just the fact that you have to harken all the way back to that indicates how few and far between even your own perceived victories are. Truly sad.

106

MKM said:

Sure, as long as it’s your religion’s “something.” It doesn’t seem to occur to you that others might think differently. Then again, I’ve noticed that it never does occur to you…

Oh, BTW, I noticed you never responded after you accused me of being anti-Christian. So you’re willing to make the accusations but not admit when you’re wrong. I especially liked how you thought the 10 Commandments were Christian, forgetting that they were handed down to the Jews…

107

I’m new here. I have perused the comments above, but may have missed it if this one was mentioned previously.
I think it is interesting that the Religious Right feels the 10 Commandments posted in school will provide a sound compass to improve moral direction in this country.
Any one of us could have written a better set of 10 rules to live by.
Why don’t we change the four commandments telling us how to worship God to:
You shall not hold slaves
You shall respect your children
You shall not rape

The commandments were obviously interpreted by men at a time when women and children had value only as property. Thou Shall Not Covet…lists, wife and servent after house.

How did the long list of rules God gave to Moses get reduced to ten? Why did the one with instructions for selling your daughter into slavery not make the final cut?

108

I believe originally Moses was given fifteen on 3 stone tablets, but dropped one. :smiley: (With thanks to Mel Brooks)

Biscuit, I have to ask - do you happen to work with Ally McBeal, by any chance… :wink:

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

109

No, I but I have seen the show a couple of times :slight_smile:

I loved the History of the World - (particularly the late Madeline Kahn) however I was referring to the actual set of rules given to Moses (not Mel), there are a lot more than ten in the bible (mostly dealing with property) and not in a particular order - how did they get reduced to 10? Who picked which 10? and why do we need four on how to worship God? (Seems like God may be a little vain) :smiley:

I don’t think posting the 10 Commandments at school is the Be-All-End-All to crimes of moral turpitude. Three Religious T-Shirt Wearing kids(all good church-going types) recently stole and destroyed my son’s $2,500 trumpet. I assume they get the 10 Commandments at home, but it didn’t take.
They only got caught by pure luck, and were only sorry they got caught, not for the actual crime committed. However, I guess as long as they have Jesus in their back pocket, they are off the hook when Judgement day rolls around.

110

**Hello…**I am new to the board and I must say I totally agre with you on this one. Furtermore…If the 10 (or so) commandments are going to be posted in state run schools…why not also post them from all the other religions too.

May The Great Spirit Bless You
May The Wind Always Be At Your Back

111

The Ten Commandments did not get “reduced” to ten. There are several explicit references to that fact that there are ten commandments. Ex 34:28, Dt 4:13, and Dt 10:4 all make reference to “the ten commandments.” The lists of those commandments are found at Ex 20:1 - 7 and Dt 5:6 - 21.

This follows ancient Talmudic tradition that says that the purpose and beauty of the entire Law can be represented/summarized by the Ten.

Tom~

112

TOM is correct, the Bible does refer tothe “10 Commandments”, BUT in l
Leviticus there are a whole host of other laws,(including the famous don’t eat pork & no milk/meat) all of which are jsut as valid as the big 10C’s. So why don’t we post the rest of them in the schools? No pork, no shellfish, keep separate dishes, etc? Because Jesus specifically exempted Christians from having to follow the Law, that’s why! If you insist on the Big 10, then the rest of the Law is valid (are you circumsised?). If you believe Jesus WAS the Messiah, and he WAS your new Covenant, then the 10 C’s are an interesting(and sacred) bit of history, that’s all.

113

Tom said:

Of course, the Christians and Jews don’t agree on which parts are the actual commandments (and some Christians don’t agree with other Christians about which 10 are the actual 10).

Medicine Hawk said:

Now that would get crowded. We don’t even know how many religions there are (not to mention however many different atheist and humanist groups might want something posted). I bet MKM would just love to see Branch Davidian texts on the wall (David Koresh was God) or a humanist manifesto or…

114

If we really MUST post a rule, something like “Treat all people, creatures, and property with respect” would say it better than the 10 commandments which don’t do a very good job of covering the various (and many) poor behaviors our species engages in.

Posting rules (or commandments) are not going to improve morality. Children learn by example, not rhetoric. It is our day-to-day BEHVAIOR that molds their value system.
Render unto Ceasar the things which are Caesar’s and unto God the things which are God’s.
–Matthew 22:21

115

How about “Don’t be a jerk”?

Dr. J

“Seriously, baby, I can prescribe anything I want!” -Dr. Nick Riviera

116

Now that David has mentioned the problem of numbering, here is the shorthand version of who holds/has held which list:

The division of the Commandments (with some supporters of each list):

__I.

  • Philo of Alexandria, Jewish philosopher (ca. 10 BCE - 50 CE)
  • (Flavius) Josephus, Jewish historian (fl. 1st Century CE)
  • Greek Fathers of the Church
  • Modern Orthodox Churches
  • Reformed Protestant Churches
  1. Prohibition of false or foreign gods
  2. prohibition of images
  3. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name
  4. Honor Sabbath
  5. Honor parents
  6. Prohibition of murder
  7. Prohibition of adultery
  8. Prohibition of theft
  9. Prohibition of false witness
  10. Prohibition of covetousness

_II. - Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (150 - 215?)

  • Origen, Christian theologian (ca. 185 - 254)
  • Augustine of Hippo, Christian theologian (354 - 430)
  • Modern Catholic Church
  • Evangelical/Lutheran Protestant Churches
  1. Prohibition of false or foreign gods and images
  2. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name
  3. Honor Sabbath
  4. Honor parents
  5. Prohibition of murder
  6. Prohibition of adultery
  7. Prohibition of theft
  8. Prohibition of false witness
  9. Prohibition of coveting neighbor’s wife
  10. Prohibition of coveting neighbor’s goods

III.

  • Modern Judaism
  1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.”
  2. Prohibition of false or foreign gods and images
  3. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name
  4. Honor Sabbath
  5. Honor parents
  6. Prohibition of murder
  7. Prohibition of adultery
  8. Prohibition of theft
  9. Prohibition of false witness
  10. Prohibition of covetousness

Tom~

117

Welcome, Hawk. Since you’re new, allow me to point out that it is customary to read the entirety of a thread before posting. Posting religious credoes from other religions has been probably half the discussion in this thread, so although “me too!” posts are fine, restating what’s already been stated for 50 posts is redundant.

Again, welcome!

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

118

If we’re going to post a New List of Good Ideas, I say take them from “All I Ever Really Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten” by Robert Fulghum:

Simplistic, but no more so than the 10 C’s.

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy! (or, if you prefer the Jesusfied version, Asketh the damn Priest Guy!)

119

Esprix:
Good plan on the Kindergarten quotes.
Not nearly as frightening as the 10 Commandments (all of that hell-fire and damnation stuff associated with them).

Back to my original proposition that any of us could make a better set of ten rules to live by - why don’t each of us contribute one and pass it on to the Supreme Court.
I’m sure they would be interested in our collective opinion :smiley:

Off the original subject, but I am curious about this can anyone explain
how is Commandment #2 interpreted?
I see lots of religious jewelry, some of quite large, around. These seems like violation of The Prohibition of Images commandment.
“Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a censor morum over each other.”
– Thomas Jefferson (1782)

120

tomndebb, biscuit:

The Ten Commandments stand out from amongst the other commandments in the Bible because those were the ones G-d chose to present in his initial address to the Israelite nation at Sinai.

Also, I should point out that in Hebrew, the term usually translated as “Ten Commandments” actually means “Ten Statements.” Dibros is a form of the word diber, “to speak.” The true Hebrew word for “commandment” is mitzvah (from the root tzivah, to command), which is often translated these days as “good deeds.”

So, while to Jews, the ten “commandments” are no more significant in their importance (for performing them) than the other 603 commandments listed in the five books of Moses, as statements they have extreme significance since those were the statements that G-d chose as his initial public address (which turned out to be his only public address, since immediately afterward, the Israelites demanded en masse that Moses represent them, since the experience was too intense for them).

Chaim Mattis Keller
ckeller@kozmo.com

“Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the
impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be
the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks.”
– Douglas Adams’s Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective