13 October 2015 Democratic debate (for commentary during & after)

[Skammer]

I really dislike Hillary, but she was polished and confident and pretty effective at brushing off criticisms and scandals (with a nice assist from Bernie). She seemed artificial, to me anyway, but you can picture her as POTUS. Her only real sour note tonight was the idea that she should be president because she’d be the first one with a vagina. However, I don’t think she’ll get much of a bump in the polls - Democrats already know Hillary and what they’re getting. I think most minds are made up about her, one way or the other. She needs to keep clinging to the media label of “inevitable” as long as she can.

Bernie was also very good - not as polished, not as shiny; but that’s Bernie. He was genuine and passionate and kept hitting the important point about being unbeholden to big donors and superPACs. Although they agree on most issues, Sanders and Clinton are very, very different candidates. I think he’ll get the bigger bump in the polls only because there are a lot more people who have not yet seen him speak at length or formed an opinion of him.

O’Malley surprised - he held his own and had a very strong performance despite being elbowed out of the main conversation. He was definitely the third wheel but seemed very knowledgeable and credible. I agree he is running for a spot in the next administration and 2020/2024.

Webb looked uncomfortable - does he wear a back brace? Was that his real body that his head was perched on? and I quickly grew tired of his complaining about lack of speaking time (even if he was right). Plus, of course, several of his positions seem to be outside the Democratic mainstream.

And Chafee was just out of his element, like a 10 year old at a company board meeting. This was his chance to make a first impression on the voters and it wasn’t a good one.

[SlackerInc]

@Slow_Moving_Vehicle

Bernie said that he tried marijuana and it didn’t work for him. Chafee looked like it works really really well for him.

LOL!

I think it took like ten times of trying weed over a several-year period before it worked for me, after which it always did. Then a few years later, I became friends with this guy who was just so born to be a stoner. He had the look, the musical tastes, a good start on the amotivational syndrome, everything. But he had already tried many times before I met him, and it didn’t work on him. I knew from my own experience that it can be like this for some people (more commonly from what I have heard is 2-3 times), but then it eventually kicks in for some reason. So I made it my mission to get him high!

It did eventually work, and he did indeed become a stoner (wayyy more than I ever was), but we would sometimes look back and laugh at the time he demurred, saying “thanks, but you shouldn’t waste any more of your weed on me”.

Anyway, the debate. I was blown away by how much Hillary kicked ass. I had been one of those getting skittish about her this summer, but then I was somewhat reassured by a recent Meet the Press appearance. Now I am more than reassured: I am excited by her candidacy again. She was absolutely dominant. I had no idea she had that in her.

[TheSpeculationElucidation]

I should have taken a shot whenever Hillary went over her time, reminded everyone she was a woman, and avoided answering questions on her flip-flopping.

Webb and Chafee are out, O’Malley was pleasantly surprising, Hillary was… Hillary :rolleyes: - Bernie was wonderful as usual.

Feel the Bern!

[adaher]

The problem with Clinton’s performance is that if 60% of voters don’t believe anything you say, how well you say it is kind of moot. But I could be wrong. We’ll see if this moves her numbers at all.

[SlackerInc]

Bernie fans are delusional: he had a bad night. Especially that whole deal with gun control, and not just because he has a difficult position. He sounded like the very senatorial equivocating politician he is supposed to be the antithesis of. And he accused first Hillary Clinton, and then Martin O’Malley, of speaking about guns too loudly, while he was using the loudest voice of all! Not good.

And then there was the revelation that he honeymooned in the USSR?!? Are you kidding me? All but the most delusional leftmost flank of the Democratic primary electorate (which does include my mother and several of my friends) knows that this is not a characteristic of an electable presidential candidate.

I think we have seen peak Bernie, and I am willing to eat crow if he narrows or even maintains the gap with Hillary a week from now.

[Jragon]

I’m a Sanders supporter, but I foresee him losing rather than gaining ground here. If you like him, you may not have known about his stance on gun control which may sour you, and otherwise heard nothing new from him; if you don’t like him, that probably didn’t change. The only ground he’s going to gain if from people entirely unfamiliar with him.

I know about his stance on gun control, and I don’t agree with him on it, but I like the rest of his stuff enough to support him through it. Gun control isn’t a major issue for me, however, and I think addressing various inequities will solve some or much of the violence we see even if we don’t touch gun laws, but I still support tighter regulations than Bernie does.

[SlackerInc]

The NYT sees it similarly:

Hillary Clinton Turns Up Heat on Bernie Sanders in a Sharp Debate (Published...

In a series of sometimes biting exchanges, Mrs. Clinton declared that Mr. Sanders was mistaken in his handling of crucial votes on gun control and misguided in his grasp of the essentialness of capitalism to the American identity. Mocking Mr. Sanders’s admiration for the health care system of Denmark, she interrupted a moderator to offer a stinging assessment of his logic, suggesting he was unprepared to grapple with the realities of governing a superpower.

“We are not Denmark,” Mrs. Clinton said, adding with a sly smile, “I love Denmark. We are the United States of America.”

The crowd erupted in applause.

A few moments later, Mrs. Clinton took aim at what may be Mr. Sanders’s greatest vulnerability with the Democratic left, asking why he had voted to shield gun makers and dealers from liability lawsuits. Mr. Sanders, who linked his record on gun control to his representation of a rural state, called the bill “large and complicated.”

“I was in the Senate at the same time,” Mrs. Clinton replied. “It wasn’t that complicated to me. It was pretty straightforward.”

Asked if Mr. Sanders had been tough enough on guns during his decades-long career in Congress, Mrs. Clinton offered a sharp reply: “No. Not at all.”

“I think that we have to look at the fact that we lose 90 people a day from gun violence,” she said. “This has gone on too long, and it’s time the entire country stood up against the N.R.A.”

It was a dominant performance that showcased Mrs. Clinton’s political arsenal: a long record of appearances in presidential debates, intense and diligent preparation, and a nimbleness and humor largely lacking in her male counterparts. She let no opportunity pass her by. When Mr. Sanders described the conflict in Syria as “a quagmire within a quagmire” but said he did not support sending American ground troops there, Mrs. Clinton interjected energetically: “Nobody does. Nobody does, Senator Sanders.”

For Mr. Sanders, the gathering in Las Vegas provided an evening of unexpectedly forceful challenges, both from Mrs. Clinton and from the moderator, Anderson Cooper of CNN. At times, he seemed somewhat exasperated and unsure about how to match Mrs. Clinton’s agility. Perhaps his most memorable moment occurred when he zestfully defended Mrs. Clinton from criticism of her email practices.

If you click the link, at the story page the video that starts autoplaying right away goes right into that “shouting” gaffe of Bernie’s, first thing.

[Jragon]

@SlackerInc

And then there was the revelation that he honeymooned in the USSR?!? Are you kidding me? All but the most delusional leftmost flank of the Democratic primary electorate (which does include my mother and several of my

I’m just going to link the Politifact on that one. He “honeymooned in the USSR”, but only in a sort of technical sense. It was a diplomatic exercise to build friendship between citizens of towns in two countries at odds with each other. The date was already set before they set their marriage date, and they decided to make it a pseudo-honeymoon. It’s not like they thought the ideal romantic getaway was to visit Gorbachev and discuss the finer points of gulags.

[SlackerInc]

I stopped reading after clicking the link and seeing “Mostly True”. They hardly ever go higher than that! That basically means it’s true.

Not to mention that one of the fundamental axioms of politics is when you’re explaining, you’re losing. Trying to explain away the Soviet trip you took the day after you got married and subsequently called a honeymoon but now say was not really a honeymoon…yeah. Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

ETA: To clarify where I am coming from, I took a trip through the Soviet Union at around the same time and came back very impressed. I have argued on this very board that Gorbachev should have been given more time to implement his more humane form of socialism. So I am quite left-wing, particularly on economics. But I am also more realistic than most of the lefties I know. If there was a carbon copy of me running in the presidential primaries, there is no way I would vote for alt-me. Maybe if my doppelgänger was running to be mayor of Seattle or something. But not the presidency, because I don’t like putting up sacrificial lambs.

[RTFirefly]

@adaher

As for Webb, every liberal here owes that man big for bringing the Democrats the Senate in 2006. He was the most high profile candidate running that year and arguably without him the Democrats might not have won that election.

Actually, George Allen was sailing towards a comfortable victory until he committed Macacacide. Until that happened, it wasn’t a high-profile race at all; few were thinking it might be the Dems’ sixth pickup.

[up_the_junction]

Clinton said 90 people a day die due to gun violence? Can’t be right can it?

Fwiw, the only thing I want to know about his Honeymoon was whether he had good weather.

[emcee2k]

Before this debate I intended on voting for Lincoln Chafee in the unlikely event that he’s still an option by the Michigan primaries. That hasn’t changed. Yup, it’s me I’m the Lincoln Chafee supporter.

His performance in this debate was about what I expected, having seen other videos of him speak. He didn’t get much chance to speak, and he completely flubbed the Glass-Steagall question.

But here’s the problem: People say actions speak louder than words, but clearly they don’t. Lincoln Chafee made a bad vote (his first vote in the Senate) sixteen years ago, and is being ridiculed for flubbing his explanation of it. Hillary Clinton made a bad vote two years into her term. A vote in favor of a war that’s resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, costed trillions of dollars and created an environment that’s fostered more radicalization that led to ISIS which in turn is used for justification for further war. She’s the current front-runner.

But what’s really ridiculous about the Glass-Steagall question, is that while everyone was snickering at Chafee, they didn’t seem to notice Clinton completely dodged the question. Chafee made a vote he clearly regrets sixteen years ago to repeal Glass-Steagall, while Clinton last night refused to come out in favor of reinstating it.

Chafee’s words show that he’s a bit awkward, and not great off the cuff. But his actions show that he can effectively run a government, never had a scandal, and has been consistently right on the important issues. As a Republican, he voted against the War in Iraq, and has supported SSM since at least 2004. Yet is polling at less than a percent.

Meanwhile Clinton voted for the War in Iraq, won’t reinstate Glass-Steagall, took until 2013 to figure out that people should be allowed to marry who the love, and wants to continue, and likely expand the US program of endless war in the Mideast. But she’s a decent debater, and has name recognition, so she’s leading be 18 points.

The main reason I intend on voting for Chafee, is out of principle. He isn’t just right on the issues, he gives the issues the correct weight. As big as an issue thing like income inequality, healthcare, family leave, and college tuition are, the US government policy on these issues hasn’t led to the violent deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, woman and children over the last decade. US foreign policy has. Programs of pumping weapons into hostile regions, decades of war and occupation, torture, drone attacks, destruction of infrastructure and the creation of power vacuums. Creating more instability and radicalization. Which leads to even more death and misery, and then justification for even more war. Lincoln Chafee is the only candidate making repairing the US’s disastrous foreign policy the central issue of his campaign, and that’s why I plan on voting for him.

[Dr.Drake]

@Kolak_of_Twilo

Webb’s military and national service is heroic and of course appreciated.

In what way is his service heroic? Is it just the fact that he was in the military (automatic hero bonus for joining!), or did he distinguish himself from others in some way?

[up_the_junction]

@emcee2k

Before this debate I intended on voting for Lincoln Chafee in the unlikely event that he’s still an option by the Michigan primaries. That hasn’t changed. Yup, it’s me I’m the Lincoln Chafee supporter.

His performance in this debate was about what I expected, having seen other videos of him speak. He didn’t get much chance to speak, and he completely flubbed the Glass-Steagall question.

But here’s the problem: People say actions speak louder than words, but clearly they don’t. Lincoln Chafee made a bad vote (his first vote in the Senate) sixteen years ago, and is being ridiculed for flubbing his explanation of it. Hillary Clinton made a bad vote two years into her term. A vote in favor of a war that’s resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, costed trillions of dollars and created an environment that’s fostered more radicalization that led to ISIS which in turn is used for justification for further war. She’s the current front-runner.

But what’s really ridiculous about the Glass-Steagall question, is that while everyone was snickering at Chafee, they didn’t seem to notice Clinton completely dodged the question. Chafee made a vote he clearly regrets sixteen years ago to repeal Glass-Steagall, while Clinton last night refused to come out in favor of reinstating it.

Chafee’s words show that he’s a bit awkward, and not great off the cuff. But his actions show that he can effectively run a government, never had a scandal, and has been consistently right on the important issues. As a Republican, he voted against the War in Iraq, and has supported SSM since at least 2004. Yet is polling at less than a percent.

Meanwhile Clinton voted for the War in Iraq, won’t reinstate Glass-Steagall, took until 2013 to figure out that people should be allowed to marry who the love, and wants to continue, and likely expand the US program of endless war in the Mideast. But she’s a decent debater, and has name recognition, so she’s leading be 18 points.

The main reason I intend on voting for Chafee, is out of principle. He isn’t just right on the issues, he gives the issues the correct weight. As big as an issue thing like income inequality, healthcare, family leave, and college tuition are, the US government policy on these issues hasn’t led to the violent deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, woman and children over the last decade. US foreign policy has. Programs of pumping weapons into hostile regions, decades of war and occupation, torture, drone attacks, destruction of infrastructure and the creation of power vacuums. Creating more instability and radicalization. Which leads to even more death and misery, and then justification for even more war. Lincoln Chafee is the only candidate making repairing the US’s disastrous foreign policy the central issue of his campaign, and that’s why I plan on voting for him.

Kudos for that: nice post.

[BobLibDem]

My impressions:

Hillary put in a solid, workmanlike performance. The only WTF moment was when she was asked why she wouldn’t be a third term of Obama. “Isn’t it obvious? I have a vagina!” Other than that, she was presidential, well informed, and articulate.

After watching Bernie Sanders for two hours, I think he has a potential second career as an orchestra conductor. He talks with his hands and arms enough where I began to admire his physical endurance. But when he talks about a revolution, are people going to say “you know it’s gonna be alright” or “you can count me out”?

O’Malley was like a comfortable old sofa. He, too, was for the most part solid. He doesn’t have enough policy difference to set himself apart from the field, but he’s a lock for veep if he wants it.

I also got the Grandpa Munster vibe from Chaffee. I had to watch him closely and constantly reassure myself that yes, he has teeth. Sure, he flubbed the question on his first vote but I was more irritated at Anderson Cooper for being a whiny little bitch.

Finally, Jim Webb looked like he was holding in a fart all night for fear of shitting his pants. Yeah, we get it Jim. You went to Vietnam. If it wasn’t for you, we might have lost that war. Oh wait… Webb looked like the dumb jock who signed up for the debate team by mistake.

Big winner was the Democratic Party. There was no bombastic moron on the stage, no racist dog whistles blown, no fear mongering, no pandering to the NRA, no verbal fellation of Reagan, etc. Any of the top three would make a fine president. For Webb and Chaffee, the bus stops here. Time to get off. Mr. Biden, all aboard!

[Peremensoe]

@up_the_junction

Clinton said 90 people a day die due to gun violence? Can’t be right can it?

If you count suicides and accidental killings along with homicides, that is the figure.

[CGav8r]

@Dr.Drake

In what way is his service heroic? Is it just the fact that he was in the military (automatic hero bonus for joining!), or did he distinguish himself from others in some way?

He was one of the most decorated combat Marines in Viet Nam and earned a Navy Cross (second highest decoration Navy and Marine Corps), a Silver Star and two Bronze Stars. Read his Navy Cross citation on his wiki page:

Jim Webb

He also came back and wrote one of the best novels of the Viet Nam war, “Fields of Fire”, which I highly recommend. He is an excellent and thoughtful writer, and did great work in the Senate (thank you for that Post-9/11 GI Bill, Senator!), as well.

[Dr.Drake]

@CGav8r

He was one of the most decorated combat Marines in Viet Nam and earned a Navy Cross (second highest decoration Navy and Marine Corps), a Silver Star and two Bronze Stars. Read his Navy Cross citation on his wiki page:
Jim Webb - Wikipedia

He also came back and wrote one of the best novels of the Viet Nam war, “Fields of Fire”, which I highly recommend. He is an excellent and thoughtful writer, and did great work in the Senate (thank you for that Post-9/11 GI Bill, Senator!), as well.

Thank you.

[astorian]

Two cents from a man of the Right…

All but Webb were bad. But Webb never had a chance of winning the nomination, and his most salient points were lost on this audience.

O’Malley was the big loser because he needed a strong performance, and didn’t come close to delivering one.

Why is Lincoln Chafee even running?

Hillary was awful, but she won easily because the front-runner always wins when nobody lays a glove on her. Nobody laid a glove on her or even tried very hard to attack her. Bernie Sanders was a waste of space, and barely made an effort to differentiate himself from her.

I have always doubted whether Joe Biden would run, but if he was watching, he had to think, “I’d KILL these losers.”

[CGav8r]

@Dr.Drake

Thank you.

Not a problem. Also, despite his lackluster debate performance, and some stances I disagree with, I like Jim Webb; don’t forget his exchange with W. after Webb was newly-sworn in (from the NY Times):

So Jim Webb arrived to the Senate with a reputation for being unpredictable, even a little weird, a little bit out of control, a little hotheaded. The sense in Washington that he was—well—different was enhanced by his famous first encounter with President Bush after the election, when at a November White House reception for newly elected members of Congress, Webb refused to shake Bush’s hand. Bush then sought Webb out and asked him about his son, who was serving in Iraq, “How’s your boy?” and Webb replied, “I’d like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President.” “That isn’t what I asked,” Bush snapped. “How’s your boy?” Webb responded, “That’s between me and my son, Mr. President.”