ok, this perturbs me. flipping through the channels on a friday night, bored, and i come across a news broadcast covering a story about a 14 year old boy in florida that has been sentenced to life in an adult prison for beating a 6 year old girl to death with his bare hands.
being the father of two girls, 5 and 6, this news was enough in itself to enrage me, however, this particular discussion was about the clemency that should be shown.
granted, i do not know why this kid was tried as an adult, but it comes out that his lawyer and mother declined a plea bargain of second degree murder. according to the plea he would serve 3 years in a juvenile prison, and then something like 10 years on probation. they declined it, went to trial, lost, and now they want clemency?
some jerk from california is quoting statistics that juveniles in adult institutions are 7 times more likely to be sexually assaulted or 5 times more likely to commit suicide, etc etc.
SO FUCKING WHAT?! he punched and kicked a 6 year old girl for over five minutes, until she was dead. imagine your niece, your daughter, your sister at 6 years old. now imagine her crying and pleading and saying how much it hurts. now imagine some kid continuing to punch and kick her for about five minutes, totally ignoring her pleas and screams and cries.
where was her clemency? where was her plea bargain?
this kid gets off lucky if he ends his own life or gets raped by his cellmate on a daily basis.
this is a perfect example of what is wrong with the prison system and the legal system in this country. i’m not going to bore you with pages of what i feel is wrong, i was raised that you don’t talk about a problem unless you bring a viable solution to it. we all know the problems, overcrowding, re-offenders, misspent tax money, undermanned prisons, nimby feelings about where to put the new prisons, and it goes on and on.
i’m bringing the solutions. times are harsh, criminals are harsh, the prisons are harsh, 14 year olds are kicking 6 year old girls to death. rehabilitation isn’t working. and neither is this half assed “pro-active” approach to teaching kids to be smiley happy people.
unfortunately it has progressed so far that there are only certain things those with criminal intentions respond to. considering that statistically, most career or violent crime committers were themselves abused, there is only one thing that they know, and respond to, fear. growing up they feared their mommas frying pan and their daddies belt, as adults they fear their own inferiority and rejection.
an eye for an eye is all they know. you want to reduce prison population? reduce taxes allocated to educating serial murderers? give raises to the over worked prison guards? an eye for an eye. the debate over capital punishment is ongoing and both camps are set in their trenches, meanwhile, previously convicted murderers are getting out on parole, and doing it again!
do i want a fascist dictatorship where you have to fear for your life over any infraction? no. what i want is for the man or woman that kills someone in cold blood, and is convicted in a court of law, to die. if they can do it once, they will do it again.
child molesters and rapists and other sex offenders? oh boo fucking hoo, they have chemical imbalances that make them do that. whether it’s a chemical imbalance, the fact that they were molested as children, or any other asinine reason, they are not fit to live. whatever happened to survival of the fittest?
‘isn’t that harsh?’ yes it’s harsh, but consider this: how many sex offenders are caught after their very first crime? molesters and rapists are caught after years of this activity, or ongoing molestations of the same victims. by the time they are caught, who knows how many times these people have committed their crimes? give them a second chance? by my estimate, each time they’ve pulled down that little boys pants or pulled that woman into a dark alley, they had another chance. no one made them do what they did.
now that we’ve cleared all those cells, lets clear some more.
how long are you in for? life? wow, so basically you’re here until you die of natural causes? wow. soooo, your reason for living is…? my taxes are going to feed you and keep you medicated and alive until the average age of 72 because…?
now that we’ve lessened the prison population by at least half, now we can discuss rehabilitation. focus on those that do still get arrested and don’t fit into any of the above categories. you aren’t going to keep a murderer from murdering, unless they fear the punishment of getting caught more than they desire to kill. it’s the petty robbers and car thieves and tax evaders that we’re going to be able to reach, and possibly change.
nothing is going to stop the truly deranged psycho/sociopath from doing whatever they want to do, but if we were to destroy the truly sick fucks we caught, joe schmo would think twice before he robbed that liquor store.
getting back to this 14 year old. ‘should he be put to death?’ yes he should. ‘but he’s only 14!’ yeah, and she was only 6, your point?
‘he’s just a child, he doesn’t have the reasoning power or experience of an adult, afterall, we don’t allow kids his age to vote or drink or drive for that very reason.’ true, but even disregarding the fact that by kindergarten all children know that you don’t hit or bite, were his childish reasoning abilities and excuse? how could he not know after the first hit what he was doing and what the outcome would be if he continued? at what point during that 5 or so minutes did he not understand that this little girl, bleeding and crying and screaming for him to stop, would die, or at least be seriously injured, if he continued.
a 5 year old finding a gun and accidentally shooting someone, that is an example of childish reasoning capabilities, 5 year olds do not understand consequences. but a 14 year old? if this same 14 year old brought a gun to school, he knew damn well what he was doing.
what really really gets me fuming about this whole situation is that they rejected the plea bargain. they said no, we’ll fight it out in court. and NOW THEY WANT CLEMENCY!
sorry asshole, you took door number 2, you’re stuck with it now.
First, some suggestions:
-
Learn to spell.
-
Learn to use capital letters. They are your friends.
-
See the “return” key over there? It’s your friend too.
-
Learn a bit more about the case; it’s anything but ordinary.
The kid rejected the plea bargain because he said the death was an accident, and was expecting to be acquitted. Now, I didn’t watch the trial, so I’m not prepared to make a judgment. The life sentence was given as the result of a mandatory sentencing law in Florida. According to the reports I read, the prosecutor is going to suggest a clemency hearing to the governor, because even he does not believe the sentence was just. He thinks the kid is probably guilty of something like manslaughter or second degree murder at worst.
“Clemency” does not mean the kid is going to get off scott free. Sentences are generally commuted as the result of a clemency hearing, not overturned. (Though governors certainly have that power in most states.)
Another point missed: He was only 12 when this happened.
Frankly, I think it’s somewhat sickening to sentence someone to life for a crime committed at age 12 – even one this hideous. Send him through the juvenile courts and then re-examine him at the end to decide whether he’s a menace. If he’s let out, put him on probation for life, etc.
Not being pissy here- I read about this, and while my views are a little different than yours, I’m not here to preach them.
But, I do kinda take exception to this-
So then what, we all sit around saying nothing until one of us gets the perfect idea/solution? It gets worked out in the talking, not the silence.
Just my two cents.
Another thing: two wrongs don’t make a right. I don’t care who they are, I don’t wish sexual assault or suicide on anyone.
How do you know it wasn’t an accident? I realize that there are some very sick people out there who don’t need to be walking the streets, but there are such things as accidents, especially when children are involved, because they DON’T have the reasoning power of adults and are more prone (at least in my experience) to believe they (and others) are invincible.
I mean, I understand your emotion, but I think you need to read more on the case. You haven’t heard all the evidence. I don’t think any of us have.
Just my two cents.
I apologize, I didn’t realize that the indentations I placed would not be used when the message posted, or that the punctuation and spelling police would be patrolling.
I understand that clemency is a plea for mercy, I never meant to insinuate that I believed they were going to let him get away without any punishment.
My point is, why should he receive any mercy? He did not show any to that little girl.
Manslaughter is an accidental slaying. This is murder.
You can argue that it wasn’t premeditated, and perhaps initially he did not intend to kill this girl, but at some point - maybe between the time he broke one of her ribs and fractured her skull - he had to realize what the outcome of his actions would be.
Having took your advice and read a little more about the story, I find that the boy even lied about the events that led to the girls death. He was afraid of the consequences, as he should be, because he knew what he did was wrong.
quote:
you don’t talk about a problem unless you bring a viable solution to it.
“So then what, we all sit around saying nothing until one of us gets the perfect idea/solution? It gets worked out in the talking, not the silence.”
Perhaps I should clarify. Talking is one thing, bitching and moaning is another. Me writing a post listing all the things I feel is wrong with the prison system is not going to accomplish anything, just as griping about the problems with society, or anything, isn’t going to help. I was raised that if you are going to talk about what you think is wrong, offer a solution as well.
Well, I wasn’t raised so much as herded, but I still say that bitchin, moaning etc serves a purpose- several people might have pieces of a solution, but be so emotional about it they can’t be constructive until they get that emotion out.
To boot- all you did in your op was rant- you proposed no solutions, except to say you agreed with what has happened to that boy, and play on peoples emotions with the death scenarios.
See? It helps. You’re a lot less angry in this last post than in your op.
No problem. I probably shouldn’t have been so harsh, but hard-to-read stuff just pisses me off. 
Again, this is something for the judicial process to decide. The kid maintains that it was an accident. And it’s a fact that 12-year old children:
- Do not understand physical limitations
- Do not fully understand consequences of some actions
- Do not fully understand the concept of death
That’s the reason why we have a seperate system for juvenile offenders, and (IMHO) why he should not have been tried as an adult.
First, manslaughter is not necessarily accidental. Second, this is the point I’ve been trying to make, you don’t know that it was murder. You don’t know if the kid intended to kill (you must prove intent to convict for murder) and you don’t know that the kid had an understanding of death and consequences. Again, this is why it is wrong to try children under a system designed for adults, the same rules of intent and precognition just don’t apply.
I dunno. I remember when I was twelve, and I certainly did not understand the difference between making someone cry from teasing and making them cry from physical pain. I’m sure I would have known I was causing serious injuries at some point, but nothing suggests this kid was as mature as I.
Kids generally lie because they are afraid. Not necessarily because they are afraid of the consequences, but often because they don’t know if what they did was wrong. I’m sure you can think of instances from your childhood where you didn’t understand the situation, and lied about it. Again, this is why juvenile standards should be different. Adults lie for different reasons than children.
Until i figure out how to get the “quote” message, I’ll have to make due with quotation marks.
"Again, this is something for the judicial process to decide. The kid maintains that it was an accident. And it’s a fact that 12-year old children:
- Do not understand physical limitations
- Do not fully understand consequences of some actions
- Do not fully understand the concept of death
That’s the reason why we have a seperate system for juvenile offenders, and (IMHO) why he should not have been tried as an adult."
I agree that he should not have been tried as an adult, I do not know why he was, most likely because of the nature of the case, or perhaps because he is physically the size of an adult (170 lbs at age 12).
While it is arguable that a 12 year old does not FULLY understand those things (children learn the concept of consequences at around age 7 according to Parents Magazine), he knew well enough that the results of his actions would result in, at the very least, serious injury. His defense attorneys tried to blame professional wrestling, claiming he was practicing moves he’d seen on television on the little girl. I’m not a pro wrestling watcher, but I know that even in that ficticious world, the wrestlers get hurt and the viewers get to watch some of their favorite stars get carted off by paramedics (whether it be real or staged). To say that this boy couldn’t link his punching, kicking, throwing and stomping this little girl with injury is ridiculous.
“First, manslaughter is not necessarily accidental. Second, this is the point I’ve been trying to make, you don’t know that it was murder. You don’t know if the kid intended to kill (you must prove intent to convict for murder) and you don’t know that the kid had an understanding of death and consequences. Again, this is why it is wrong to try children under a system designed for adults, the same rules of intent and precognition just don’t apply.”
No, manslaughter is not necessarily accidental, however intent is intent. Whether you are 6 or 56, if you meant to do it, there is an intent. The intent has obviously been proven in this case, because he’s been convicted. Arguing that the intent is proved based on an adults intent vs. a childs intent is irrelevant.
I’m not saying that he originally intended to kill this girl. That was probably the furthest thing from his mind when he started suplexing her. She had a broken rib, a fractured skull, a lacerated liver and various bumps and bruises though. At some point during this prolonged beating, he crossed the line from accidental or manslaughter to murder. Ignorance is not an excuse for a crime, so arguing that he didn’t know any better is bs.
“I dunno. I remember when I was twelve, and I certainly did not understand the difference between making someone cry from teasing and making them cry from physical pain. I’m sure I would have known I was causing serious injuries at some point, but nothing suggests this kid was as mature as I.”
12 is what, 6th or 7th grade? Think about your life at that time. Hormones are raging, you’re discovering another side of yourself and the world around you. You know full well that yanking on the ponytail of the pretty girl that sits in front of you is mean yet flirty, that singling out the over-weight kid in the locker room and calling him names until he cries is mean and wrong, and that you don’t jump from atop the bleachers in the gym because you can break your leg.
Consequences are understood well enough to know that you’re hurting someone. Over the time it took to beat this girl to death, this boy had to ignore or otherwise block out her cries of pain and screams of pain. That is just plain sadism. If this boy can do this at 12, I’m honestly afraid of what he’ll be capable of later in life. Serial murderers start out on animals, this kids got a head start.
My solution was to put all of those i mentioned to death.
My intent was not to play on anyones emotions about the death penalty, but to offer the simple solution to the various complex problems I’d touched upon within the prison system.
It’s harsh and human rights organizations would argue every which way against it, but when thier 73 year old great grandmother is assaulted and raped by a “man” that has been convicted of rape and let back onto the streets because he was “rehabilitated”, perhaps they’ll re-assess their views.
What is “suplexing”?
Try to remember that the victim suffered something like 30 (yes, thirty) different injuries. There was more going on than just some smackdown moves (not that they are acceptable).
A life sentance is all of thirty five years which is usually cut in half for good behavior. Eighteen years or so from now this convict will probably be a free person who shall need to contemplate the value of human life.
Zen, you refer to a life sentence with parole as an option. Your equation does not apply to a life sentence without parole.
With the degree of compassion on display I wouldn’t like to step out of line in soulmurks house. I just hope that he can be more forgiving to his two little girls as they grow up.
It is a kid, and no matter how bad and evil the act was, to adopt the attitude that he deserves to be raped daily is simply sick.
Soulmurk whilst you rant on, and on, and on, all you manage to do is show that you perhaps the kid isn’t the only one with problems. I for one, would feel that rather being the tough man that you try and demonstrate in your posting, that you are at an age where you should have matured and achieved some levels of wisdom but unfortunately it seems that you too, got a raw deal in life.
Two people stand facing each other. You place your arm around their neck and lift them until they are above your head. You then fall backwards, taking them with you.
[/quote]
and for my next trick, I’ll do that properly:
[/quote]
soulmurk:
Do you want us to be like him, or do you want us to be unlike him?
Ah, the old “wait until it happens to your family members . . .” ploy. Too bad it’s compelte and utter horseshit. Did you know that the families of several of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh’s victims are opposed to his execution because they oppose the death penalty? That throws a little monkey wrench in your theory, huh?
Another way to quote is to click on the little quote button to the right of the date in the post of the person whom you would like to quote, and delete everything you don’t want to quote between the quote and /quote bracketed words. Also, at the top of the screen under The Straight Dope banner and on top of the title of the thread is a subscripted link that says [sup]vB code[/sup]. Click on that for instructions for quoting specific posts, and for other posting instructions.
As to the OP, our newspaper says the boy said he was imitating body-slamming pro-wrestlers when he killed the little girl (our paper says only one) and that the boy’s lawyer and his mother repeatedly rejected a plea bargain that would have meant only three years in a juvenile prison.
I have only watched a little pro-wrestling, but my belief was that the floor of the wrestling ring is highly cushioned and that the moves are choreographed and practiced so as to minimize injury to the wrestlers. This child doesn’t sound like he had a very good grip on what actually was going on, and he also sounds like he is a bully unchecked previously by his mother. The mother seems to believe that he should not suffer any retribution at all.
Although I agree with the prosecuter that the sentence is too harsh, I believe that this boy has serious issues to resolve before he is safe to release into society. The article in our paper didn’t say anything about an appeal, but I am thinking that this may be reversed if they appeal it.