15-year-old son of deputy shoots burglary suspect

[Uber_the_Goober]

@runner pat

From The Brady Campaign.
72% of all burglaries occur when no one is home.(Which means that in 28%, someone is home.)
Violence occurs in 7% of all burglaries.

Which means there’s a 1 in 4 chance that if you are home during a break-in, there will be violence committed against you.

Care to do the statistical backflips required to parse out the percentage of burglaries in which alternate responses led to an increased or decreased rate of violence?

In other words, was “being prepared” part of the response in those 7% of violent burglaries? Or were these people who reacted poorly? Didn’t adequately protect their home with locks or alarms? Created a mindset within the home that fighting back is always the best and only option? Or whatever else may have happened? Just because 7% of burglaries involve violence doesn’t mean they have to. And there’s nothing to prove that guns in the house make violent burglaries less common. Even if you had a stat for that, could you parse out the numbers relating to household gun accidents per successful burglary defense? Or if it had anything to do with owning a machine gun versus a rifle versus a shotgun versus a handgun versus a sword versus etc…

I’d have to say no; those statistics are only going to say what supports your preconceived views.

One thing is clear though: crazy people use guns to shoot up public places and hurt lots of people. When they do it, they tend to use the type of guns that no *responsible *gun owner needs or wants. It’s mil-sim AR-15’s or semi-automatic handguns with like 5 magazines of ammo (because every good home-defender should have 5 magazines loaded and ready to go :rolleyes: ) and ballistic vests and whatever the fuck else.

Gun ownership advocates of the type speaking up here - at least in my book - are worse than creationists. Worse than hardcore atheists. Worse than fucking racists. Short sighted and pig headed. Unwilling to recognize the harm their attitude does to civilized society. Until your children are all murdered by some whackjob who stole you or your neighbor’s guns, or bought it at the local gun shop, I don’t think your mind will change.

Shame on me for even opening my mouth in this thread.

[running_coach]

@Nunzio_Tavulari

I thank you for providing the link because it allows me to include what you left out.

Of the burglaries in which someone was home and violence occurred (7 percent of all burglaries), 65 percent of victims knew the robber. Most people subject to violence were not injured or suffered minor injury (89 percent). Burglary-related homicides are rare, accounting for 430 average annual homicides or less than 1 percent of total homicides (2003-2007).

A one in four chance of being one of the 89% bruised by a burglar does not warrant deadly force.

So they knew the robber. That means it’s acceptable to be assaulted?

[Uber_the_Goober]

@chiroptera

Oh! Cute!
It’s not an arguable point if you precede it with “As an aside.” I guess I missed that directive.

Alrighty then.

I’m going to bed. Happy 2013.

It’s not being presented as a point having anything to do with the point being argued.

That’s how that works. It’s still an arguable point, just not one confronting the issue being responded to.

Do you really not know how this works?

[Oakminster]

@Uber_the_Goober

Shame on me for even opening my mouth in this thread.

You finally said something we can agree on. Shame on you.

[Stealth_Potato]

@runner pat

So 140 in mass shootings vs. 430 in burglary homicides.

The 140 includes wounded; the number of dead is closer to 60. They’re all very small numbers in a nation of nearly a third of a billion people, though.

[Joey_P]

@Nunzio_Tavulari

My single objection to this particular story is that these children were alert and able to flee from danger instead of applying potentially deadly force. I don’t care if it’s their house, the proper response to danger is to flee from it until no longer possible. If someone bumps into my car, my first response will not be beating them about the head with a baseball bat. Some gun owners think that the gun is always their first option.

I’m not sure if you read the article or not, but there was two burglars. They tried the front door, then the back door, then broke a window. Where, exactly, did you want them to flee to?
Tell me? If you were sitting alone in your house and heard your front door rattle and people talking, then a few seconds later, you heard your backdoor rattle and the glass get kicked in what would you do? Dad’s trained you on how to use the guns. He’s told you what to do in this situation. He’s a cop, he’s come home with stories over the years. Do you get a gun, hole up in a room and see what presents itself (or whatever the boys did from there) or do you walk out, unarmed, and just hope that the chatter outside meant there was only two and that they’re both by the backdoor where you heard the glass breaking?
Keep in mind, if you’re wrong, you might get killed before you make it across the front lawn.

I’m pleased that they were able to defend their house. I’m distressed that they did it so badly that they couldn’t take down the target with three or more bullets. If you need to shoot, I want you to be accurate so that innocents are not hurt. The boy was old enough to be able to handle the weapon

Wait what?

[Nunzio_Tavulari]

@Joey_P

I’m not sure if you read the article or not, but there was two burglars. They tried the front door, then the back door, then broke a window. Where, exactly, did you want them to flee to?

Right. They’re at the back of the house. Go out the front. This whole “It’s my damn castle and I’m not leaving for nuthin’” crap sounds like those fools who stay behind when a hurricane is coming. If there’s danger, get the hell out!

@Joey_P

or do you walk out, unarmed, and just hope that the chatter outside meant there was only two and that they’re both by the backdoor where you heard the glass breaking? Keep in mind, if you’re wrong, you might get killed before you make it across the front lawn.

Gee, that really is a castle that you’ve got there. My place has windows that I can look out of. You have a gun, take it with you if you want to protect yourself. Walk out on the front lawn and fire it at the ground. Every neighbor on the block will look out to see what’s going on. Criminals don’t want that kind of attention and they’re not going after you.

People don’t commit burglaries with mobs, especially in daylight. It’s too conspicuous. I know people who have been burglars. They do it because it’s safer than mugging. The pawn shop will give them fifteen or twenty dollars for your crap. It’s not worth assaulting home owners over that. If they are armed, it’s to protect themselves. These people are not murderous terrorists out for a big score, they’re guys with slim prospects trying to grab enough to pay for a half tank of gas in their car. The number of people coming into your house with the express intent of killing you is miniscule. Are there rapists that would attack a home? Yes, but the number of pedophile home invaders is even smaller than the former number and walking out the front door in broad daylight in a residential area is enough to guarantee one’s safety. Doing it with an assault rifle in your hand is even better.
This is a justified shooting. Houston, TX 12/27

2am, in bed, upstairs with no easy escape route. No electricity and presumably few people around because of a fire in the condo complex earlier in the day. Intruder was warned, and continued to enter. Shooter killed the intruder, so I assume he knew how to handle the weapon instead of firing at least three shots and still losing the target.

[ul]
[li]I have no problem with people that have guns; provided that they keep them locked in a safe place, know how to hit their target, and only use them on humans when there are no better options.[/li][li]Saying that one should shoot an intruder as your first option, simply because it’s “your home” is an unreasonable position. There are three full-size fire extinguishers in my house. If it catches fire, the only reason that I’ll grab one is because it’s within arm’s reach and flames are blocking my only escape.[/li][li]On a different issue: I have problems with folks who own guns when they know there are family members who are prone to violent outbursts. If you have an assault arrest on your record, I feel that you may be unable to keep your emotions in check and need further evaluation before being allowed to own a gun.[/li][li]I believe that we need better legislation to restrict guns but have no ready solution. The pro-gun lobbyists are rigid and provide unrealistic proposals. This hinders their cause and they will end up losing more than if they had compromised.[/li][/ul]

[silenus]

Dad better have the kid at the range first thing tomorrow morning. He fired three rounds, and both burglars ran away. That’s pretty poor shooting in my book. Probably should have let Little Sister handle it. I doubt she would have missed.

[Lust4Life]

While I applaud a burgular getting shot I’m just not happy with the idea of a 15 year old using lethal weapons.

Many 15 year oplds AREN’T mature beyond their years, whatever their doting parents think.

[Dangerosa]

I don’t see anything in that article that implies he was defending himself or his sister. A burglary is over stuff. There may or may not have been a threat to him and his sister.

[Cartooniverse]

@Eonwe

Anecdotes, including the recent CT shooting, are poor pegs to hang one’s hat on when discussing public policy.

With due respect to the forum this thread appears in, it is galling in the extreme for anyone to consign a massacre involving both adults and children to the " anectdotes " bin.

:mad:

[Dewey_Finn]

@silenus

Dad better have the kid at the range first thing tomorrow morning. He fired three rounds, and both burglars ran away. That’s pretty poor shooting in my book. Probably should have let Little Sister handle it. I doubt she would have missed.

Another poster joked about the same thing; that the kid shot three times using an assault gun of some sort and only left one burglar wounded. But what it tells me is that there is a huge difference between shooting a paper target in a gun range and shooting at a live intruder in the excitement of a home invasion situation. I’m not sure how much training can prepare you for the latter.

[silenus]

Dad needs to take them to the Sheriff’s range, which probably has a fun-house type component somewhere. Pop-up targets are more helpful than just banging away at pieces to paper on a stand.

Dangerosa - The second those scumbags broke the window, it ceased to be an “attemped burglary” and became a “home invasion” scenario. The rules are completely different then. The kid did the right thing.

[Joey_P]

@Nunzio_Tavulari

Right. They’re at the back of the house. Go out the front. This whole “It’s my damn castle and I’m not leaving for nuthin’” crap sounds like those fools who stay behind when a hurricane is coming. If there’s danger, get the hell out!

How are they supposed to get the hell out? Two burglars, two doors? Where did you want them to go?

Gee, that really is a castle that you’ve got there. My place has windows that I can look out of. You have a gun, take it with you if you want to protect yourself. Walk out on the front lawn and fire it at the ground. Every neighbor on the block will look out to see what’s going on. Criminals don’t want that kind of attention and they’re not going after you.

Right, grab the gun then run out the door. I don’t think you understand how quickly this can all happen. I don’t know how fast it happened in this case, but I’m guessing they didn’t have 2 minutes between each door rattling to run around making these decisions.
Grab the gun, run outside, shoot the ground? Teach your kids to run to the neighbor’s house before you teach them to fire off a warning shot for attention.

People don’t commit burglaries with mobs, especially in daylight. It’s too conspicuous. I know people who have been burglars. They do it because it’s safer than mugging. The pawn shop will give them fifteen or twenty dollars for your crap. It’s not worth assaulting home owners over that. If they are armed, it’s to protect themselves. These people are not murderous terrorists out for a big score, they’re guys with slim prospects trying to grab enough to pay for a half tank of gas in their car. The number of people coming into your house with the express intent of killing you is miniscule. Are there rapists that would attack a home? Yes, but the number of pedophile home invaders is even smaller than the former number and walking out the front door in broad daylight in a residential area is enough to guarantee one’s safety. Doing it with an assault rifle in your hand is even better.

I don’t know what this has to do with anything. No one was talking about mobs or rapists or terrorists or pedophiles.
Let’s try a slightly different scenario. Let’s put you in the kid’s shoes. You’re at home, you’re a deputy’s son. You hear someone trying to come in through the front door, a second later you hear someone trying to come in through the back door and then glass breaking and someone climbing in a window (or a door unlocking, I’m not sure what happened). Regardless your politics. You, being the 15 year old kid. At that exact moment, someone just came in through the back of the house, you KNOW there was a second person and he hasn’t come in yet, he could still be at the front door. Do you chance it or do you grab one of dad’s guns? You know where it is, you know you can get it, load it and fire it before the guy even knows your in the house…what do you do?
Calling 911 will reveal your position.
Opening the front door may reveal the other bad guy.
Or maybe the were upstairs/downstairs and not in a position to leave, I’m not sure.

Also, don’t forget, these are duputy’s kids, they’ve likely heard lots of stories over the years about people being killed in home invasions.

About a year ago my store was robbed at gunpoint. Whenever someone talks about carrying a gun people always ask you if you could shoot someone if you had to. I never knew if I could until that day. Now I know I could. The fuck if someones gonna point a gun at me and get away with it. Granted, an actual armed robbery where someone comes into a store specifically looking for cash is slightly different but even though I’m not a ‘gun nut’ I think it gave me a bit of a different outlook on some aspects of this whole self-defense thing.

Running out the other door just wasn’t an option. What if he saw me, what if he shot me? What if his getaway driver shot me or ran me down? Luckily, it didn’t play out like that, no shots fired, he was in and out in about 15 seconds, the cops showed up about 10 seconds after he left (with 2 AR-15s pointed at me since they didn’t know what was going on). I was in a place where he didn’t even know I was in the building, but I saw it all play out.

[Oakminster]

@Dangerosa

I don’t see anything in that article that implies he was defending himself or his sister. A burglary is over stuff. There may or may not have been a threat to him and his sister.

Bullshit. He and his sister were alone when the criminals broke in to the house. That is all the implication necessary for any sane person.

[11811]

@Nunzio_Tavulari

The deputy appears to live on a cul-de-sac. That’s a stupid place to commit burglary, as you have to leave the car in plain view while you rob three houses and carry the contents outside.

However, I don’t see any great need to shoot anyone. It’s 2:30pm, you’re dressed and there are neighbors up and about. Grab the cell, call 911 and leave the house. Nobody was in danger, brute force was unnecessary. I’m not familiar with Texas law but I assume that the state does not execute burglars as a rule. I think it’s a bit much to grant a 15 year old boy greater punitive powers than the state. This isn’t a farmhouse twenty miles from the main road. In the time it took to get the gun from the safe, load it, and position oneself for defense, the police would be nearly there.

It’s not unthinkable that the gun was out in the open and loaded, maybe even with one in the chamber.

Joey P beat me to it [shakes fist: Joey!!!]

[Joey_P]

Nunzio, I’ve noticed you’ve rearranged or otherwise added a lot of ‘facts’ and I think it’s becoming distracting and not helping the discussion. If new facts come out that support what you’re saying, that’s great, but some of the these things aren’t fair.

@Nunzio_Tavulari

Right. They’re at the back of the house. Go out the front.

Did it say in the article that they were both at the back door and the kids had a clear path from where they were to the front door?

In the time it took to get the gun from the safe, load it, and position oneself for defense, the police would be nearly there

How long did it take them to get the gun? How long is the typical response time for police in that area? I didn’t see either of those in the article.

They were dressed, and I will assume on the 1srt floor, since that’s where the burglars were.

Another assumption. Kids might have been playing in the basement by a gun safe or in the second floor if dad keeps the gun in his bedroom. Or, they might have been on the first floor (like you said) and ran for the gun like they were taught to do instead of running towards the bad guy. They followed their training ‘bad guy in house…get gun’

They came for the TV, they don’t want any hassles

Are you sure, I thought they already hit that house once. I’d be concerned they came back for something specific now.

My single objection to this particular story is that these children were alert and able to flee from danger instead of applying potentially deadly force. I don’t care if it’s their house, the proper response to danger is to flee from it until no longer possible. If someone bumps into my car, my first response will not be beating them about the head with a baseball bat. Some gun owners think that the gun is always their first option

How do you know they were able to flee. For all we know at this point, one was at the back door and one was at the front door. Also, comparing house invasion to a car accident isn’t fair.

What you are effectively saying is that if I break into your house you feel that nothing should be done to stop me. I mean, you can call the police and the police can arrest me if they can catch me, but if I’m in and out before they get there…I win. If I show up with a friend and point a gun at you, you legally shouldn’t be able to do anything about it? That means that the bad guys with the guns are the winners, the rule the land. They can walk into anyone’s house point a gun at them and order them around knowing that the homeowner can do jack about it.

Running is great, but it’s not always an option and you have to stop assuming that it’s always just that simple. Maybe someday you’ll find yourself in that situation and realize that when the bad guy comes in one door you don’t just always happen to be right next to the other door. Hell, that’s why people get trapped in burning buildings. I mean, why didn’t they just walk outside.

Do you really think that you can get a gun from a safe and load it faster than you can walk to the front door and open it?

If someone is trying to break into my house…yup. Especially if I was one of those people that kept it in my bedroom, which isn’t anywhere near my front door.

I’m confident that a policeman three doors down can come to my aid in the time it takes for someone to break in, realize the house is occupied, and decide to hurt me. Tell yours to lay off the doughnuts.

I’m assuming you’ve never shot a gun. It takes literally seconds, to load a gun. Pretend like your a cop, sitting at home, you heard your neighbors address on the scanner, grab your belt and run down three doors…can you do it faster then the time it takes me to put a magazine in a gun and rack the slide. I doubt it.

Is your phone that complicated that you have to “fumble” to dial three digits? Your user interface is too complicated. Get a new phone, it’s cheaper than a new gun.

Find my phone, turn on the phone/screen, unlock the screen, back out of any apps, hit the phone button, 911 Send, get transferred from the Milwaukee County Sheriff to my suburb and explain what’s going on. I’ve done it many times, I know how long it takes, if I had a gun nearby and I was properly trained to use it fast enough, and I heard two people trying to get into my house, that might be my first response as well.

[Magiver]

@Nunzio_Tavulari

They came for the TV, they don’t want any hassles. The number of intruders bent on raping and pillaging is quite small and I probably have more to fear from eathquakes.

It’s always great to hear from yet another internet psychic. Thanks for informing us of the burglar’s intentions. Do you have an 800 number the kids could have called? The kids need to know the burglar’s intentions and how soon the police arrive and whether there is a getaway driver.

[Joey_P]

@Magiver

It’s always great to hear from yet another internet psychic. Thanks for informing us of the burglar’s intentions. Do you have an 800 number the kids could have called? The kids need to know the burglar’s intentions and how soon the police arrive and whether there is a getaway driver.

:smack: I meant to add that to my list of Nunzio’s assumptions.

[Ethilrist]

Yeah, it says “burglary suspect” right there in the thread title. I think we might’ve had a different discussion here if it said “intruder”.