2018 U.S. Open (tennis)

The Game Room
101

Exactly. The most seasoned veteran on tour was acting like a spoiled toddler, because a “ticky tack” foul call took away her right to smash a racquet with impunity. How about just don’t smash the racquet? It’s setting such a poor example. I wish they would simply get defaulted for doing that.

:eek:

I think she’s the best, abilitywise, but there are other top contenders (partly depending on whether we judge them “for their era”—if we don’t, we have to dump Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb from the HoF since it’s very unlikely they’d be able to hit against modern pitching).

Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova, Monica Seles, Chris Evert, even Venus for that matter. Lindsay Davenport, who finished the year #1 four times during Serena’s career, deserves a mention. Martina Hingis looked like a GOAT contender for a couple years there, but couldn’t sustain it.

Serena’s peer Justine Henin won seven majors (“Slams”) and an Olympic gold medal during the heart of Serena’s career. She beat Serena in the majority of their meetings at majors, including three times in 2007, when they were 25 and 26 and at the peak of their powers. (And if we’re doing the “pound for pound” thing, Henin has got to be the runaway winner at a skinny 5’5”.) As of the end of 2007, when both Henin and Serena had been professionals for over a decade, Henin was the superior player, having finished the year ranked #1 three times to Serena’s once, and with a gold medal (Serena had none). At that time she was on a 32-match winning streak, including the year-end finals. The streak finally came to an end in early 2008 when she lost to Sharapova, and a few weeks later Henin pulled a Borg, retiring while still ranked #1. (Like Borg, she tried an ill-fated comeback years later.)

So that was quite a gift to Serena, who certainly took advantage, getting to the finals of four of the next six majors, winning three, after Henin’s abrupt retirement (whereas leading up to the retirement, Serena had only made it to three of the previous 16 major finals). Serena did finally get her Olympic gold medal in 2012, but it’s notable that in her other four Olympics she failed to win even a bronze in any of them.

102

Oh, come on. Djokovic has never failed a test. Nadal has never failed a test. And yet look at them. People keep describing them as “superhuman.” I’m just singling them out because of their rankings, they aren’t the only ones in superhuman shape, just the most consistent winners. Every once in awhile, oops someone you never would have suspected slips up and fails a test (Sharapova, Cilic). They always have an excuse. Like “Oh dear my mother bought this in Latvia and it has different stuff.”

The thing about performance enhancing drugs is, you can quit taking them and yet you still have the benefits of having taken them.

Serena has been tested more than other players because she’s won more matches. But the day after you win the last match of the tournament (or lose it, whatever), you aren’t going to be tested for awhile, and now you’re training for the next match. I’ve heard you can take steroids for just a little while, during a period when you won’t be tested, and the effects of them are still helping you out years after you’ve stopped.

The anti-doping thing is pretty ridiculous because on the one hand it has all these loopholes, and on the other hand it has banned, for instance, caffeine. Really? Antihistamines. Really?

103

When they were showing footage of Serena pointing her finger up at the ref when she was yelling at him, all I could think was, “wow, look at those biceps! Those delts!” I was completely distracted from what was going on in the tennis match by the defintion in her brachialis muscle. :eek: :smiley:

104

Really hard to make that case. Both of those players have won more slams, won all of the slams and won them over a period playing at least two other active players of legendary status.

He’s a great player no doubt and a thoroughly nice guy, I like him as a person and as a sporting example but having watched all of his career and all of Nadal and Novak’s too he is a much more limited player than either and nowhere near as entertaining to watch.

105

If they are they have yet to burst onto the scene. Federer, Djokovic and Nadal were all reaching GS finals (and winning in some cases) in late teens and very early 20’s.
We just aren’t seeing the equivalent from anyone in the current crop.

To do even more that this group will be hard but not impossible. You do have to remember though that this is a very, very special group of players. GS winning careers of over a decade for all three of them.
I’ve said it before but it bears repeating. Andy Murray is a great tennis player but considered to be a step down from those top three. In an era without some of those legendary players he stands a good chance of getting 10 GS titles and being regarded as an all-time great.

106

…you obviously don’t have a clue how the testing regime works, (no she hasn’t been tested more “because she won more matches”, that isn’t how it works), they are tested both in competition and out-of-competition, drug testers even turn up to players homes announced. Miss three tests in a calendar year and its a violation.

So she couldn’t have taken “steroids for just a little while, during a period when you won’t be tested”, because there isn’t a period where you can avoid being tested.

107

I think it is possible, on the basis that Sampras won 14 Slams in an era with very few other stand-out players (Agassi being his main challenger, and he was not always there). No disrespect to Sampras, he is one of the all-time greats, but he didn’t have the same competition that the current greats have (i.e. each other, plus Murray).

So, it is quite possible that in 10 years (say), another great talent comes on the scene, and if they have basically no competition, they could overtake Federer’s record if they stay fit for their entire career. I don’t think it’s likely, but it is possible. If you remove one or the other from the equation, Federer and Nadal would have won a few more Slams.

108

Although I’ve already made it clear I don’t think Sampras is the equal of Djokovic or Nadal (and certainly not Federer, though I don’t see anyone disputing that), I feel in fairness I need to push back on this a bit. Some of the top players in the 1990-2002 span when Sampras won those titles:

Agassi (already mentioned)
Becker
Edberg
Courier
Stich
Ivanisevic
Chang
Rafter
Hewitt

I wouldn’t argue with someone who said none of those except Agassi are really on the level of the Big Three (plus Murray) who have dominated most of the 21st century so far. But that’s a lot of tough players to contend with, so cumulatively when I look at that list (which leaves off some other really strong players of the era like Korda, Kafelnikov, Safin, Pioline, Philippousis, Krajicek, Bruguera, and Rios) it does actually add a bit to my respect for Sampras’s achievement.

109

Lance Armstrong was a speed demon early in his career (World Champion in '93) yet after his cancer he somehow became an endurance specialist. People were skeptical.
They were right to be.

Nadal was a skinny kid when he came. Djoker was known for having limited endurance early in his career. Nadal is now ripped like a body builder and Djokovic is a fucking duracell…

Serena somehow gets more muscular in her late 30’s. She also has had problems with clots, a known side effect of 'roid use.
:rolleyes:

In competition testing is nearly worthless. Just done to keep everyone on their toes. Most of the doping is done on the off season to develop bulk and enduance and aide in recovery. And Therepeutic Use Exemptions (TUE) make any risk minimal, just get a doctor to sign off saying “this substance is/ was medically necessary”. Like Serena with her half a dozen retroactive TUE. Given weeks after games she won and tested positive in. Second most TUE? Nadal.
One of the “triggers” for enhanced testing is a pattern of long layoffs and sudden increases in performance after return, most common example of that? Serena and Nadal.
Note how Murry seems to be out of shape and lacking match fitness after his layoff, yet these two never do? Their traning regime must be awesome.

These are used as masking agents and as discovered with Armstrong the bars mean sweet fuck all if you can get a TUE.

110

The real glaring problem with professional sports drug testing policies isn’t the frequency or predictability in which the testing is administered but rather of always being one step behind the professional doping industry. The althletes who dope work with doctors and scientists, etc. who are utilizing the most up-to-date science and technology to design drugs that are undetectable with current testing methods used by the major sports. So the sports drug testing agencies work to develop reliable tests for these “designer” drugs and the dopers are already at work on the next undetectable version of their juice. It’s a cat and mouse game and the cat never seems to get the mouse. And all this isn’t even to mention current drugs like human growth hormone, that as far as I’m aware, still has no reliable test for it’s detection.

111

…nice rant and all: but unless you have any evidence that Serena or anyone else in the 2018 US Open is using drugs, some cites to say what you claim here is true, or you can provide some credentials that show you are some sort of expert at deducing someone is using drugs based on their looks alone, I would suggest that what you’ve got to say is decidedly off topic.

The question you asked before was “What is professional tennis’s drug testing policies?” You’ve gone from not knowing the drug policies to being an expert on the “real glaring problem with professional sports drug testing policies”. I’m confused on to how much you really actually know.

112

Getting more muscular in one’s late thirties is normal, at least for men. A lot of men are strongest (although not fastest) at that age. A woman like Serena who obviously has her fair share of testosterone may be similar.

113

You’re right, I wrote in a decidedly confusing, sloppy manner
I didn’t mean to include all professional sports in my comment re the problems in testing, only those in which I have knowledge. Those sports would be primarily football and baseball. But given the previous comments (with cites) addressing the weak nature of the anti-doping tests in professional tennis, it wouldn’t be a surprise to me if tennis didnt face some of the same problems with the issue as other prpfessional sports. I will try to keep further comments completely within the scope of this thread.

114

No, strength and musculature peaks, on average, in the mid-20s in men. ETA: I guess it would still be considered normal to peak upwards of 35. So comment partially withdrawn.

115

The Young Turks (I know) list occasions where men have said much worse than Williams and not been penalized including by this same umpire.

Just one data point and TYT are not tennis experts by any stretch so maybe they are cherry picking or missing some. I do not know.

116

Well the first thing that video states is that John McEnroe and Jimmy Connors were never docked games for their tantrums.

errrr, McEnroe was disqualified from the 1990 Australian open. Rightly so.

Connors had similar issues in 1986.
The fact that they get that so very, very wrong rather calls into doubt their judgement.

117

Whoa. That’s pretty interesting. I especially think this part is relevant:

That seems pretty strict to me.

118

I’d never thought to look into it before, but Google says she measures up the same as Björn Borg — right between Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe.

119

Men have been DQ forhttp://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2018/09/09/5b9524df468aebb72a8b4578.html less than what Serena did.

120

Yeah, I don’t mean to diminish Pete’s achievements, I was as big a fan of his as anyone. I doubt he is devastated that three others have now eclipsed him, though he probably is somewhat surprised. I will just say that Becker, Edberg, and Stich were coming to the end of their careers in Pete’s prime, Ivanisevic was only a big threat on grass (and I say that as someone who was delighted he won Wimbledon, finally), and Chang I don’t think belongs with the others. Then again, I was only 5 years old in 1990 so I’m happy to defer to your presumably superior knowledge and memory of that era. I’m not saying Pete had an easy run; just that if Federer can win 20 slams competing at the same time as two guys who have won way more than that between them, had those other two not existed he would have won more. Hence, the current record is certainly beatable in theory. In practice, even staying match-fit for that long is a mighty achievement, as Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray know all too well.