23rd psalm etc.

Not wishing to further hijack the “Greatest thing ever written thread,” I give you some replies (here) to things written (there).

To mod CKDexter…thanks. I can take the heat, but it’s good to know there are rules and mods who step in if/when needed. What’s the old saying about never discussing certain topics? :smack: :stuck_out_tongue: :dubious: :confused: :eek: :slight_smile: :frowning: :wink:

My initial quote was: The 23rd Psalm…if you’re convinced you’re 100% atheist, read it. Still sure?

Panache quoted a later post: This is why I say that if someone professes to be atheist, I’d have to think they don’t react at all to these things.

Quoting Panache, Apparently we need a new thread: "The single most stupid thing written by anyone, ever. Possibly.

Panache used my quote without any context surrounding it. I could be reading between the lines wrong, but Panache seems to think I don’t realize they can appreciate these things purely as art.

First, I assume some people who are devout atheists AVOID anything religious in nature as much as possible. And I don’t assume that every atheist is this forum is a “former Christian” or living in a Christian area where you run into the 23rd Psalm at funerals and such, whether you want to hear it or not. I didn’t say “Read it AGAIN” because maybe they’ve NEVER read or heard it. It’s true, OTOH, that maybe they know it but haven’t thought about it in a long time.

Second, everybody has a different definition of art. There are people (believers and atheists alike) who probably don’t see what the big deal is about the 23rd Psalm. If the art isn’t as magnificent in their eyes, then it won’t serve to answer my question. So, I cited some other examples that tug at the heartstrings of many. I only chose them because I knew them…I know zero about the Koran (for instance) that I could quote as an excellent piece of writing, though I’m sure examples exist. Had I known some, I would have used them as well.
Omniscient posted that I should take the proselytizing elsewhere. I wasn’t proselytizing…which specific religion was I allegedly selling? Atheism is the belief that there is no God. That means no Yahweh, which relates to the 23rd Psalm. But atheism ALSO MEANS no Mohammed, no Buddah, no god(s), period—throw out wicca, voodoo, EVERYTHING.

So my question was whether such moving works of art ever caused a person to revisit their religious (athiest) beliefs. I thought it was possible that someone might say, “Damn, that 23rd Psalm is good! I don’t believe in Christianity, but that is so good that it makes me think maybe—just maybe—there is some higher power.”

“Something higher” might be the law of averages or shit happens or yin-yang or what goes around comes around or hell is other people, IOW something as simple as a great truth of some order in the universe. Or it might be more traditional.

To finish with the proselytizing angle, the accusation doesn’t fit. Reason: I’m not selling anything. To those who find that statement suspect, I say: Jehovah’s Witnesses come to your door hoping to bring you to their church or get your financial support, or whatever. I have no church to take you to, no cause to enlist you in, no reason to care what you believe or don’t, no brownie points to make with anyone. As I posted over there, IMO belief or non-belief is an individual journey for sure. Each person takes all the data in and arrives at his/her own answer and I think that’s exactly how it should be. Apologies to anyone who thought otherwise.

That said, I envy people who do think they know because it probably makes their lives simpler. They can’t sell it to me any more than I can sell it to you, however.

Lakai posted: Try to ignore the hostility toward religious people here. Religion hasn’t been as good to others as it has to you.

I appreciate that, but the irony of this comment just blows me away. I’m half-laughing, half-wincing over here. I can’t say I’ve had a good experience with religion because I haven’t had much experience with it at all.

I do have some spirituality, however. I’m more like, “OK, I’ll allow the possibility there is a higher power but I’m not sure what.” Sometimes I put the face of Jesus on it just for my own mental shorthand but if I had grown up elsewhere, I’d go with the local god(s).

I simply wondered if anyone else found transcendent art (especially with a religious theme) to have an effect on them that made them pause a moment and go just a little in that direction of believing or not.

Revenant replied: Amazing Grace, in particular, can set me off - but there are times when i’m unbothered, so I pretty much put that down to the singer and not the writing itself being brilliant. There’s probably a good many atheists (or just people of other religions) who would agree with me.

See the sentence I underlined above. I’ll risk an inference: Revenant is saying yes, these things can be deeply moving, but that never pushes the opinion toward the direction of a higher power. If so, that answers my question. Others atheists may agree with Revenant, or not.

I already posted over there about ethology…oog, I don’t have the strength.

I don’t promise to stick around for every post in this thread. I know dopers enjoy making good arguments for things they believe in etc. Problem here is, I think I’m defending myself against what some others seem to think I believe (but don’t). That’s not nearly as much fun.

No. Have you ever read Joseph Campbell? I assure you, one can be an atheist and still appreciate all kinds of religions.

I would say certainly to some, but not for most (though of course this is entirely my guesswork and anecdotal data). Certainly there are many atheists who’ve had bad experiences with religion, or with religious people, or are just jerks. I’m probably a bit of all three. :wink: But plenty of religious things are pretty good; I have no trouble donating to a religious charity, or enjoying a religiously-themed piece of art or music on it’s own merits, or having religious friends. I think the “GAH! Getitoffme!”-type atheists aren’t really in the majority. Besides, religious types have been around longer and they have all the cool stuff! There’s not a huge amount of art or music based around atheism alone.

That was pretty much what I was saying, but I wouldn’t say “never”, at least directly. I’ve never thought, for example, “Wow, this rendition of Amazing Grace brings tears to my eyes - maybe there’s something in this God business!”. I don’t see that being moved by something religious is any different really than being moved by something nonreligious, especially since I can be moved by things of many faiths. But there are certainly times when i’ve been provoked by just happening upon something religious (or even something not directly faith-specific) into thinking “Hey, perhaps there’s something to it?” and pondering for a while. But it’s not as far as I can tell related to how moving or well-written something is. I can be provoked into thinking about things with the most base piece of mindless religious glurge as well as a quality example of religious art or the like.

That said, I can certainly understand why people might be affected that way emotionally. It just hasn’t really happened to me.

Why is it assumed atheists have not been raised on reading the bible and going to church? It is a nice history book written by a bunch of people. Edited a few times through history. I went to church and catechism classes until I got old enough to tell my parents I would not do it anymore.

I’m saying I have to allow for the possibility that there are such atheists who avoid everything and anything religious. I’m also sure there are atheists who are perfectly comfortable with the imagery etc. and don’t avoid it but find something valuable (but non-religious) in it.

Actually I haven’t read Joseph C but I’ve heard of him. Need to get him on my reading list.

It’s a very strange concept indeed… do devout Christian refrain from reading Greek mythology because they don’t believe in Zeus? Does a particularly beautiful passage in Tolkien make you lean, ever so slightly, towards believing in the Valar?

If one doesn’t believe in a higher power then even the highest human artistic achievements are still first and foremost human achievements.

I guess for me, the fact that it is religious is that nth that pushes me. It’s interesting to note (excuse the pun) that Pachelbel’s Canon in D might be something that can make you weepy at times…well, it uses the same chords as the verse in “One Tin Soldier.” What’s up with THAT?

I think it was you who mentioned the birth of a baby in a post. Perfect example of another moment that might make people pause. My suggestions of the 23rd Psalm etc were like the religious landmines…but some might find inspiration in nature or while they’re flying their airplane or when they look upon their beloved, whatever, and again I never meant it had to be some Christian epiphany.

I suspect there are lots of atheists out there who follow the Golden Rule. To me, that just means there are people who don’t need a church to tell them how to be good. Religion isn’t a prerequisite for living a life with strong values and trying to leave the planet a little better than you found it. I’m also quite certain they build the churches big enough to hold the hypocrites. But, people do put such stock in labels.

In the other forum I said that my colors are showing b/c I’ve never really chewed the fat with atheists. I don’t know the percentages…

A) One assumption I have refrained from making is that all atheists are “fallen away” Christians, i.e. that they ended up as atheists after going through the whole process of church and deciding against it. In some cases, I gather, there was a major letdown of some sort.

B) In other cases, maybe there was no big dramatic “I believed and God let me down!” Gonzo, the way you phrase it reminds me of a Catholic friend I had in high school who told me, “As soon as I move out of the house, no more church for me.” He was just saying it didn’t do anything for him so he went along with it as long as he had to.

C) I figured that some simply didn’t have any religious background at all. I guess we’d have to poll the athiests what their path was.

D) Finally, I would guess not all atheists started as Christians, even if they started with a religious background. Some are “former” Jews, Muslims, whatever.

I have no issue with discussing the bible as history, but again, I’ve only read about three pages of it so I hope there won’t be a quiz. :smack:

Not being a devout Christian, I wouldn’t know. And not having read Tolkien, ditto. But I wouldn’t avoid them because I think I’m pretty open-minded…I see many around me who aren’t.

I have no problem with recognizing human achievements at all.

Well, I’m one atheist who will openly admit to not having much interest in religious stuff. It’s boring, due to overexposure alone. Been there, seen that, got the T-shirt, got another T-shirt, and there’s a third, and there’s another crate of them over there, and yeah, okay, enough already. Sure it’s a human achievement or whatever, abstractly speaking, but when you’ve seen it fifty thousand times, you’ve seen it all.

(Plus references to the sky-fairy make me eye-roll instinctively nowadays, which tends to lessen the appreciation.)

Regarding the background poll, I was raised in a religious religious household but never, ever bought into it.

Art does fill me with a transcendant wonder. It fills me with a transcendant wonder at the abilities of humans to make art. The fact that simple physical principles can lead to conscious self-aware beings that can do science, make art, and all the other higher things people do is astonishing. It doesn’t make me believe in God, though.

And yes, the KJV is an astonishingly beautiful work, IMO, although I understand it’s not the most accurate translation.

Thank you so much for saying that. When I hear a moving work of religious music . . . or see an inspiring religious painting . . . or visit one of the awesome European cathedrals . . . It’s not the Glory of God that I experience, but the Glory of Man. When I visited the Chartres Cathedral and beheld the amazing stained-glass windows, I was amazed at the artistry and craftsmanship of whoever created them, not the God who may have inspired him. When I listen to Verdi’s Requiem, it is Verdi who is revered.

I think you need to get out more. Where do you live that you know so little about atheism?

I was raised a Christian and have read more than 3 pages of the Bible. I was not let down by religion I just realized at some point that it just didn’t make any sense, and that things were more understandable when you left out the supernatural.

My reasoning was something like this:

I believe in my (Episcopalian) religion because my mother was that religion.

Everyone else who is religious thinks that there religion is the correct one, just like I think that mine is correct.

The chances that they are all wrong and I just happen to be right is less than the chance that we are all wrong and there is no God.

Once I reached that epiphany it was easy. How did Jesus get born from a virgin? He didn’t, just like the Coyote didn’t vomit up the earth nor does the earth rest on the back of turtles.

The 23rd Psalm, while a very beautiful expression of a certain sentiment, is not a convincing argument in favor of a higher power.

That is really what I appreciated in art. When it expresses real emotion very creatively and beautifully. I don’t always agree with what is being expressed, but I am not one to deny it when I see something being expressed very well.

Actually, the Earth is resting on the back of an elephant. It’s the elephant that is standing on the turtles.

Actually, four elephants.
I can get that numinous hum from all kindsa places, religious or not. If it’s religious, I just blow off the religious aspect. Don’t need it, don’t want it, don’t care.

There was a song I did in choir that goes:

Someday, things are gonna get easier
Someday, things’ll get brighter
Someday, we’ll walk in the rays of the beautiful sun…

MAN, you should hear a choir sing that. And I’ve felt that sense of wonder wandering Forest Park late at night. Didn’t get me any closer to a deity. I liked the beauty of it.

That said, there is a LOT of stuff that may or may not be any good, but I can’t tell because the religous content repels me so.

@Dan Blather: Oh, I definitely need to get out more. There are probably people I know who are atheist but the topic never came up.

I’ve used that very reasoning (Everyone else who is religious thinks that there religion is the correct one, just like I think that mine is correct) with my mom, who is Christian. Understand, she brought the battle to me and not vice-versa: “Don’t you think God must be pretty wonderful…?” etc. Gets me nowhere with her.

You also posted: The chances that they are all wrong and I just happen to be right is less than the chance that we are all wrong and there is no God. At a very low time in my life, when I was searching for some answers, I allowed for the possibility that Christianity or Islam or Hinduism were wrong, but that maybe religion was right. I.e. rather than dissect what’s right or wrong about a particular religion, I went to the wide-angle lens and asked myself why people around the world believe in things supernatural.

So while I had always thought, ‘Why Jesus?’ I started thinking, ‘Why not Jesus?’ I supposed I might find parallels in other religions if I did the research but I’m basically a lazy individual. I went to a Christian church for about a year and it helped. I don’t regret any of the time I spent there, but I resolved some things and haven’t been back since.

And now, the “No, I’m not a Bible beater”* refutatio*.

  1. My ex-wife was Hindu but not much of a tour guide. I wish I could impart some wisdom she passed along to me but ah…umm…

  2. My last serious gf was Muslim. We used to go walking in the park and I’d take some peanuts for the squirrels—they’re so damn funny to watch. She told me one day that the Koran says something about the importance of being kind to animals. Total accident, but the church I had attended years before was named for St. Francis, who was known for his love of animals. I don’t know if I get Muslim points or Christian points for feeding them…I just did it because they will come right up to you if you have peanuts.

  3. I volunteer a lot. I don’t know what religions the other volunteers may follow or if they’re atheists. I know they’re good people to give of themselves and that’s all that matters to me.

@TheThem:

Someday, things are gonna get easier
Someday, things’ll get brighter
Someday, we’ll walk in the rays of the beautiful sun…

O-o-h Child by the Five Stairsteps? Great tune!

Not that difficult to play on guitar either, as it turns out (I transpose the following down half a step).
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/f/five_stairsteps/ooh_child_crd.htm

I’m an atheist. I was raised Mormon, and bought into it pretty strongly until my mid-to-late twenties. I love choral music. Much of the best choral music is based on the Catholic liturgy. I loved that music when I was a good Mormon girl, even though I wasn’t a Catholic. I still love that music now, even though I don’t believe there are any gods.

Beautiful religious artistic expression doesn’t make me believe, but it does make me wistful for belief. It might seem strange to hardcore atheists, but I sometimes miss believing. Faith, as I experienced it, was very comforting.

To paraphrase a line from The Matrix, “Now that you know the truth, would you really want to go back?”

Atheist, raised Methodist. Had no falling out, in fact loved going to church (we had a ton of great youth activities), met my first love there, etc. Although there were periods of questioning that I went through in my teens, I mainly just slowly drifted towards the realization that everything I was being taught was completely unsubstantiated, and that there wasn’t a need for a god or gods to explain why things were the way they were. In fact, if I did believe, I’d wonder what the hell he was thinking when creating some things. My disgust with the judgmental nature of various religious types didn’t occur until well after I was an atheist, so I can’t really say there was anything pushing me away from the church, other than losing belief in a supernatural being. My moral code is fine without a fear of retribution, and I do many things that people around me call “Christian” on a daily basis. Hell, I even go back to places when I find out that they gave me too much change.

As for staying away from things that are religious in nature, I’ve been known to go to church service or mass with friends (I really enjoy those candlelight bell services that some put on), have read the bible three times all the way through (after I became an atheist), give and receive gifts on Christmas, chocolates and candy on Easter, etc.

By the way, you can keep your 23rd Psalm and give me Song of Solomon any day. Feel free to choose any of the alternative interpretations of its meaning, if you’d like, but I’m sticking with the most obvious one myself. :slight_smile: