http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html Heres your percentages. Depends on where you live.
There is a strand of Christian thought that goes this route, though I would not say it is mainstream:
The lads were mad for the Norse tales and their abbot wanted them to buckle down to the religion thing and abjure that wicked Norse paganism. “What has Ingeld to do with Christ?” has become shorthand for the idea that the secular arts should not be allowed to interfere with religious duties.
It’s an interesting point, and as a believing Christian, I have a hard time trying to work with a mindset that doesn’t look at the beautiful elements in Scripture for literary quality alone.
Best thing I can do is note the catharsis available from reading or viewing the tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides, even though nobody subscribes to those myths and legends. Or perhaps the elegance of a formulary from the Tao Te Ching. I’m about as far from being a Taoist as it’s possible to get and still be a non-Materialist, but I can see the beauty in some of those passages – as simple, elegant, with each line necesary, as the finest Japanese print by Hiroshige or Hokusai.
**Gaudere **posted something back in 2000 on the distinction between theistic belief and the spiritual reaction to good art that encapsulated what I’m trying to suggest here, but I doubt I’d be able to ferret it out, even if Jerry hasn’t archived it. So perhaps I might be able to invoke her to explain her point again?
Oh no, I definitely don’t want to go back. There’s no way I could believe again, and I’m not willing to go through the motions either. But, I miss feeling spiritually connected to the music I love. <shrug>
I am a staunch atheist, not raised catholic, attended religious school, read Torah as a bar mitzvah, read the Old Testament, New Testament, and Koran in college. Nothing I have ever read has made me believe there is a god.
However, live Pearl Jam is about as close as I get to believing there is a purpose…
@JustThinkin’: quite a leap from buying into it and walking away completely. As I posted, I went to church for about a year and it served a purpose for me. It’s probably a bad analogy but in my case, I thought maybe it was like taking an aspirin for a headache. It helped…so why am I not still taking aspirin? Oh right, the headache’s gone.
Your story seems different though in that you probably went to church when you were younger, your life was relatively calm etc.
I’ll second you on the Catholic music. There’s some really good stuff there.
@DMC: One of the trends I’m noticing is that the more people are educated, the more they pull away from religion. Sidenote: I work with a bio teacher who is quite religious, right down to the tithing stuff. She says she wouldn’t object to teaching “intelligent design” :smack:
As for Song of Solomon, yeah, that’s some pretty hot stuff. If you haven’t heard the Kate Bush song on “The Red Shoes,” you really must.
@gonzomax, thanks for the link. Quite a bit to digest there.
@Humble Servant, if I read your post correctly, the saying means, “Stay away from things that don’t glorify Christ”?
One point I might make here which pertains to this and other posts is that I wasn’t asserting causation. E.g. suppose someone hears a piece of music and feels transcendence. It could be:
A) that a god “played” the composer like an instrument, launching “His” music via the composer;
B) that the composer, inspired by a god, was able to find the best music in himself;
Sure, those are possible. But what if
C) music, simply by virtue of its nature, can have such a powerful grip on our hearts and minds (see how I’m stopping before including soul?). Who composed it is a secondary issue in a way because I’m not asking you to give god credit for it, either as creator of it or inspiration for it.
Suppose someone did say, “I was a total athiest but then I heard this song and for a moment—just a moment—I thought maybe there was a higher power. And then that feeling went away.” I could ascribe that to the power of music, but I’d also have to agree that the composer, performers, makers of the instruments, guy who designed the acoustics or engineered the recording, yadda, contributed. I remind myself not to think there’s one cause producing one effect.
A question for the athiests…gonzo was asking why I assumed that athiests hadn’t read the Bible etc. Well, like Presbyterian parents raise Presbyterian children, wouldn’t athiests raise athiests? As I posted, I figured some athiests didn’t have a falling out or anything; they just grew up in non-religious households.
DMC mentions going to services occasionally (e.g. bell services) but obviously that isn’t for the religious content. Proactively seeking out religious training (confirmation, catechism, etc.) for the kids is out. But JustThinkin’ was saying how much she enjoyed it—would she send her kids or see if they suggest it or say no, I don’t think you should, or…?
Again, not trying to convert or persuade or anything…just curious how your choice affects (or doesn’t) decisions about your kids.
So Ingeld was more popular than Jesus!
I actually went to church every Sunday growing up, but I’m not sure I ever really went specifically for the religious content. I went to the sermon because my parents made me, went to Sunday School because I got to see many of my friends, and engaged in the various other activities, such as choir, youth camps, etc., because I enjoyed them. While I was raised religious, I’m not certain I ever had strong religious leanings, but you wouldn’t have known it based on my actions. As noted, you actually wouldn’t know it today based on my actions, unless you specifically asked me about my religion.
I’d never push my kids towards church, but if they did want to participate, I’d certainly drive them. I’d also go see their choir, church basketball games, plays, etc., but wouldn’t attend church with just to keep them company or to keep up appearances for their sake. I’d also be perfectly honest about my take on things religious if they asked, but wouldn’t pressure them to follow my path. If I have kids, they’ll obviously be awesome human beings, but they’ll be that with or without religion in their lives. 
And so are the writers of Norwegian Wood.
I was going to say that, Dan, but then I imagined there was no heaven. It’s easy if you try. 
For those who are having trouble with seeing Psalm 23 as poetic because of the explicit references to God, you might try 1 Corinthians 13. It makes no explicit reference to God or Christ.
As I understand it, the Lindisfarne monks (they were scribes–did the famous illuminated Lindisfarne Gospels) were neglecting their duty to instead read and study secular lit–the head of the order thought that the gospel was the greatest story ever told (so it was sort of an early literary dispute*).
The contrary strain of thought, that one should develop all of one’s talents in the arts or otherwise for the greater glory of God is the motto of the Jesuits. Also, illustrated by the subcreatorship idea JRRTolkien espoused.
*Just kidding, to some extent, the order head of course believeing that the “greatest story ever told” was also true while Ingeld was “only” a legend.
While it’s good not to make assumptions, in the US, I think most atheists were raised as Christians and then lost their faith. I would not say that most had a major letdown, as in a bad experience with the church, most like me just realized at some point that it was all unsupported by any evidence.
I would wager that most atheists in the US know far more about the Bible than most Christians. Take a look at this list of tips for Christians who want to debate atheists, written by a Christian who had been doing this himself. I realize you’re not debating, but it might give you an idea.
True, but in the US, Christians are around 85% of the population, while Jews, Muslims, and “whatever” total to around 3%. It’s far more likely that atheists who were formerly religious are ex-Christians based on that alone, even if those other groups have higher rates of losing their faithful (and in the case of Jews, I think they have a much higher rate of Jew-atheist conversion).
The Bible talks about events, but most of the stuff in there seem to be legends with no basis in what really happened. The Garden of Eden, Noah’s flood, the Jews’ exodus from Egypt, possibly even the existence of Moses, Solomon, and David were all simply legends and never really happened. There’s very little history you can learn from the Bible.
I’m a praticing Jew, who has been an atheist since early childhood who sings Christmas caroles and other Christian hymns (as well as Jewish songs and Prayers) in the shower.
It’s pretty music and has nice messages. It’s just not that confusing to me.
I underlined the above just to restate that SDMB includes members outside the U.S. Your points are well-taken, however and I again acknowledge my ignorance of the composition of the group in general as well as the subgroup in SDMB.
My wife and I are atheists and we’re raising our kids to be atheists. But that doesn’t mean that we’re sheltering them from religion. Far from it. My attitude is “The more you know about all religions, the easier it is to be an atheist.”
See, the thing is that religions all contradict one other. Some say there’s one god, some say there are a lot of gods, some say there are none. Some say Jesus was divine, and some say he was just a wise mortal. Some say that you shouldn’t eat pork, and some say you shouldn’t eat beef.
**So, obviously, most religions must be wrong about most of the things they teach. ** And since there’s no empirical evidence to help us sort out false theological claims from true ones, you might as well just assume that they’re wrong about everything and live your life accordingly.
I heard it said that “teach a child one religion and you indoctrinate him; teach him about many religions and you inoculate him.”
'Nother atheist checking in.
I don’t find the 23rd Psalm, or the Bible, particularly compelling. Many theists think if I’ll just read this or that, or do this or that, that I will “see the light”. Sometimes I indulge them. Mostly I don’t anymore.
We raise our kids very much like what CurtC posted above. I obviously don’t think religion would be very good for them, but they can make up their own minds when they reach an age of being able to make up their own minds, whenever that is.
(Raised marginally Methodist with a smattering of Christian Science thrown in.)
<tiny hijack>Had a look at the link out of interest, and compared NZ’s numbers to those from Statistics New Zealand for the 2006 Census figures. The Adherents.com 2005 figure for NZ for atheist/agnostic/no religion is 20-22%, whereas Stats NZ says 29.6% in 2001, rising to 34.7% in 2006. This may be an isolated inconsistency, or say something about Adherents.com’s figures. shrug <end hijack>
I’m one of the (slightly over) 1/3rd of NZers who aren’t religious (self-identify as agnostic), and yet I often get tearful on hearing Amazing Grace (though it’s used for funerals in my family so…), and like the 23rd Psalm, and Christmas carols… but they don’t make me a believer.
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to have faith, to believe, to really believe/know for certain. I imagine that it would be comforting (except for some the fundamentalists – their world must be truly frightening to live in)… but I don’t, and no matter how much I enjoy religion as mythology (lots of different religions), it doesn’t grant gnosis.
I read #23 earlier today, as a refresher. Didn’t change my mind. Still an atheist.