Yeah, I’ve been in the vicinity of gunfire twice, and both times, I went straight the fuck back in the house.
Granted, the video shows 2 minutes (now edited down to 1 min) of a confrontation that had been brewing likely for years. But in that clip, it’s very clear that the Goys have contempt toward Spaide. That doesn’t mean it’s all their fault, but the point is this: contempt is an important line of demarcation in human relationships.
When someone feels contempt, it means you have total disregard for that person as a sentient, emotive, feeling being. You are likely to engage in provocative behavior, offensive, aggressive, and even violent behavior when you have contempt toward someone.
When marriages fail, you have frustration, then resentment, and then contempt – not all breakups or divorces end with contempt. And that’s the difference between a breakup where people can agree to part ways but with some mutual degree of respect, even if there’s some resentment or feelings that they got somehow ‘short-changed’ in the relationship. But with contempt, it’s different; it’s destructive. It’s a desire to tear someone down. You see this in toxic workplaces, too.
That’s what I see here in this video. I don’t see frustration about an unresolved issue. I don’t see a disagreement over where to place snow; I see a couple deliberately going out of their way to dump snow on their neighbor’s property or somewhere close to it, knowing that it’ll probably piss him off. The issue of snow is beside the point - the Goys have contempt toward Spaide, which speaks to the point that someone else made earlier: the time for “This is stupid, let’s go grab a beer” is a ship that probably left port years ago.
Now, I don’t know why the Goys have contempt toward Spaide. It could be that they got legitimately angry over something he did before that we don’t see in the video. It could be that they got angry over something they had absolutely no reason to be angry about. My hunch is that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle between this all being brought on by Spaide and this was all the Goys just being their usual ass selves. That’s not to say it’s 50/50.
It’s too bad that they couldn’t all see that this was escalating and pull back on the throttle a little.
I’ve perceived a large number of “neighbor” incidents which began when one neighbor did something the other neighbor asked them not to.
The initial action could be relatively innocuous - an isolated loud party, mowing their lawn early or late, not trimming a tree - or ongoing nuisance behavior. But in many such situations I have observed, the neighbor who is not respecting property lines and their neighbors’ right to quiet enjoyment of their property, frequently escalate when asked to change their behavior.
Can’t generalize from one isolated incident, and tempers can reasonably fray when dealing w/ excessive weather conditions. But if I were placing a wager, my money would be on the Goys being something other than nice, quiet, respectful neighbors.
It matters that they were in an argument, and it matters that they had a history. That is not the same situation as being out, minding one’s own business, and just being a victim of circumstance. The particulars of the case matter. Unless you’re claiming that you think someone already in a rage is going to act the same as anyone else on being exposed to a deadly threat. And keep in mind, even the criminal justice system recognizes that a person who is otherwise reasonable may act… not so reasonable when provoked to anger. It’s the entire basis for common law voluntary manslaughter.
ETA: training for combat and training for self defense, too, will often highlight how panic or rage can affect perception and response to stimuli. There’s a reason for that.
You’re acknowledging that the situation was not “normal” to begin with. It was not “normal” for the Goys to try to provoke Spaide in the way they did, regardless of their history. It was not “normal” for them to fly into a rage in response to being asked to stop throwing snow on his property. The whole thing was abnormal behavior. Nearly everybody has acknowledged that the Goys were acting like incredible assholes. The Goys reaction to being shot at may have been due to having worked themselves up to such an extent that they were unable to behave “normally.” So maybe if someone is in a blind rage that is the way they might act, but being in such a rage over such a trivial offense isn’t normal in the first place. Very few people would have gotten into that state in the first place, so you can’t say it is normal.
Yep…
Here we agree. I’d just ask you to keep in mind which of us is making an argument from what “normal” looks like, and which of us is insisting that we have no idea how a normal person would act in this situation. If you want to come at it by saying that no normal person could ever find themselves in this situation, then… well… let me just restate that I don’t think there’s enough context provided in the video or the reporting to determine who initially provoked this.
Maybe the Goys were the assholes, but then again maybe the guy who first shot them and then went in and got a second gun to administer a coup de grace to each of his grievously injured victims was. Absent the full context, I am reluctant to adjudge the victims here to be “the assholes.” I am, however, happy in conferring that title (“the asshole”) on the guy who shot them dead.
You’re not necessarily wrong. I suspect that the Goys were probably always a bunch of confrontational, self-righteous assholes.
It’s still possible that Spaide may have had opportunities to approach the situation differently and that his own reactions might have made matters worse.
We just don’t know. I know that his actions at the end were obviously a terrible overreaction that wasted the Goys lives and his own as well. It was all completely unnecessary.
I’m still laughing at this.
I was also wondering if/when somebody was going to point out that the plural of “Goy” is “Goyim.”
I have absolutely no qualms about labeling the Goys the assholes; they’re not the only assholes and agreed that the one who shot them down in cold blood is the bigger asshole.
But the Goys are definitely assholes. That’s obvious from the video. They remind me of so many other in-your-face confrontational assholes I’ve met over the years. In fact it’s Mr Goy who, if I recall correctly, first threatened violence with his words by threatening to kick his ass (forgot his exact words) and by approaching Spaide’s property, calling him a “p*ssy.” Serious assholes. And unfortunately now, dead ones.
That is fighting. It’s not ‘touching’, but the legislature and the courts have decided that ‘non - touching’ forms of fighting can be just as illegal as ‘touching’ forms, which would be because they have the same intent and effect.
You could also argue that coming out and shooting somebody after an argument is not fighting. And that ‘they’re having a fight about what to have for dinner’ is not fighting, and that ‘I’d go to bed and pull the covers over my head when my parents were fighting’ is not fighting, but I was writing about the way people act and respond, not just about hitting.
I really ought not over assume from insufficient facts, but I occasionally think how horrible it would be if “the neighbors from hell” moved in next door.
Sure, it is easy to say you should pick up and move, but a lot of emotions and other factors get involved when you feel threatened and uncomfortable in your own home.
No, it is NEVER appropriate to shoot unless in clear self defense. But I can conceive of how an ostensibly normal person might get to that point.
Really makes me appreciate the “Hey! neighbors” I have around me.
The vid I saw starts w/ the shooter calling the male victim a “scummy MF.” Anyone hear/see what happened before that? Any idea whose camera that was?
Gotta love the bystanders coming up and asking, “Are you OK?” Ya THINK?!
There’s no “maybe” about it. There’s no indication in the videos or the witness accounts that Spaide (on this occasion at least) did anything to provoke the Goys into threatening him with violence the way they did. I have absolutely no hesitancy in labeling the Goys assholes, no matter what Spaide had done previously. They clearly weren’t reacting out of fear, but trying to make Spaide fear them.
I can actually understand at some level (although not in any way excuse) Spaide’s first shooting episode. The Goys had threatened him with violence. It’s possible he just intended to threaten them with the gun and scare them enough that they would leave him alone in the future. When they didn’t react with fear and continued to provoke him he may have just lost it.
When I was mugged at gunpoint, after the incident was over I felt so enraged that someone would threaten to take my life over money that I literally wanted to kill him. Even if I had had a gun I don’t think I would have tried to do so, but I certainly fantasized about it.
What puts Spaide beyond the pale for me is coming back out with the rifle to execute his victims after he had the chance to calm down. That wasn’t in the pure heat of the moment. I can’t imagine being so cold blooded as to execute people who were already seriously hurt.
If you Google the shooter’s address - 6 West Bergh - you can see Spaide’s house has a retaining wall (not a fence as I thought from the vid), w/ a parking place in front of it. Perhaps he was pissed if the Goys were pushing snow into that spot.
Looks like a darned nice neighborhood.
The articles say it’s surveillance footage. From the viewpoint, the camera must have been located on the second story of the Goys house. In fact, Google Street View seems to show a surveillance camera at that location. I don’t know how the news agencies would have gotten hold of it.
It’s about 20 miles from where two of my nephews live. It’s actually a pretty nice area.
Notice that Spaide didn’t seem to waste much, if any, time loading his firearms, which leads me to believe that he prepared for a confrontation. Either this was because he felt threatened legitimately, or he was so enraged (and fearful) that he fantasized about just offing them once and for all. He might not have known the day he woke up that this would d-day, but when they were out shoveling snow, the adrenaline likely started kicking in. Probably not long after they started yapping at each other, he’d decided that he’d had enough of whatever shit they’d be dealing and mentally prepared himself to grab his guns.
At this point, his adrenaline and his emotions are taking over. He’s no longer thinking like a modern citizen living in civilization; his primitive mind begins to take over. Before we could learn to use language, we used our instincts and our emotions to community. Put guns near the prehistoric version of us, and bad things are going to happen. We see this as Spaide’s adrenaline begins to surge. He’s now thinking in terms of life and death, in terms of survival. The Goys are now mortal enemies. And yet they don’t run, they come closer, taunting him, threatening to beat him to a pulp, calling him weak. Worst of all, shouting at him, raising their voices at him, which is another primitive communication that reinforces the perception of threat that Spaide feels. The Goys don’t know it yet, but they’ve triggered a switch that is going to turn Spaide from a fearful but civilized man into an armed monster.
For a moment, he completely loses touch with reality. His emotional, primitive brain completely overwhelms his rational, civilized brain. But his weapons aren’t spears or stones; they’re semi-automatic guns, giving him the power to take out probably as many as 5 or 10 people if he could shoot straight, which he apparently can’t, possibly due to adrenaline.
He was inside his house only about 30 seconds each time. I don’t know how much time it takes to load a pistol or a rifle, but that suggests to me they were already loaded. But if you have weapons for self defense, it would make sense to keep them loaded. I’m not sure that he expected to use them against his neighbors.
ETA ninja’d by @Colibri.
Only a person who doesn’t understand firearms expects people to leave them unloaded. They’re useless unloaded. Depending on the specifics, you might choose to keep the gun locked or the ammo clipped and ready but nearby. But done right it’s the work of seconds to load & be ready to use them. If it isn’t the work of seconds, you’re asking to have somebody beat you to death with the metal club that’s your useless unloaded firearm.
No Spaide probably wasn’t specifically planning to shoot those people on that day. But folks who keep firearms around the house are planning to shoot somebody someday on short notice if necessary. Today just happened to be that day and Goys just happened to be that somebody when the necessity (or at least Spaide’s perception of that necessity) arose.
Sidebar: unless the law prohibits keeping firearms loaded, which is the case in some non-USian countries.