3 Dead over snow shoveling dispute - PA

Yes. As I suggest there are are reasons to leave them specifically unloaded, yet ready to be loaded in 2 or 4 seconds. So legally unloaded, unloaded enough to be a pretty good obstacle to a curious 4yo creating a tragedy, but not so far from loaded that a material amount of time is spent in the transition from unloaded to loaded.

I interpreted @asahi to be assuming it would be the work of minutes to load guns and since Spaide didn’t take minutes, he’d therefore certainly preloaded them before the altercation specifically as a premeditated act preparatory to murdering the Goys. A conclusion with which I disagree. And which, admittedly, I may have read into his milder meaning.

This is a tragedy. But IMO that specific contention is not one of the aspects thereof.

Don’t want to hi Jack this thread, but no, other countries’s laws require can require guns and ammo to be locked up, requiring someone to have the key/combination so it’s not a matter of seconds to have a loaded gun.

Would that I, Spaide, Goys, and the rest lived in such civilized places. Such is not to be, at least not any time soon. So we need to judge (or at least try to comprehend) these folks’ motivations and behaviors in light of the milieu of their society. Pig ignorant though it may be.

But an armed society is a polite society. Didn’t you know that?

Maybe if the three of them had prefaced each of their horrid, hateful taunts that day with “Due respect, …”

I’m trying to gauge the Goys reactions… and it doesn’t make sense. Yes, sometimes neighbors have disputes and sometimes they get loud… but they were both the aggressors and the first ones to whip out the camera. It almost seemed like the two of them got off on it somehow the way that some people do when they film proud boys punching peaceful protestors ( “oh boy did we own the Libs.” {cue eyeroll} ).

Were they doing this because they wanted to post the footage on YouTube or Reddit to score “hits”? Mr Goy is definitely doing the aggressive ape-walk towards Spaide as Spaide left. Personally, I would have called the cops & filed a report. It makes a record that the cops can link to in future and puts the Goys on notice that their sh-t won’t fly anymore. Goy was nearly double Spaide’s weight so fighting to get away was not an option. Staying inside probably would have served him best (20-20 hindsight).

If he absolutely Had to go back outside and this gorilla that was threating to beat him up, maybe being armed (assuming he had CCW) was the way to go. Sure, people talk smack, but if Goy had really attacked, taking serious injuries from Goy seems foolish.

But… that gun should have never left its holster unless he was attacked. The shooting was completely and totally inexcusable.

I can’t read minds, but IIRC, Spaide had already called the cops on the couple before over something. Maybe the wife began filming, thinking that she’d bait him into committing a crime like menacing, assault, or something like that as a way of getting even with Spaide. Or maybe I’m just over-thinking all this.

Anger and fear speed up a person’s mind and their reactions. They block out rational thoughts; they make us operate on instincts, and instincts are often incompatible with analyzing the long-term consequences of our actions, which is ultimately what I think happened.

I think Spaide became so enraged that he just literally snapped. He had probably mentally played out some of what happened in his mind, either because he really feared for his safety, or perhaps because he had so much contempt built up toward the couple (which seems mutual, btw) that he began fantasizing about removing this ‘problem’ from his life forever.

I think some of us reading this have experienced dealing with someone we loathe. Maybe it’s a bitter dispute with a family an estranged family member, or a neighbor, or a boss, or a co-worker. What makes it worse is knowing that you can’t just escape the situation. You and your nemesis will inevitably confront each other again. The mere sight of that person or those people triggers a response, and the response tends to intensify over time, with each new encounter.

Spaide was already pissed at the mere sight of the Goys – and then of course, they amplified those already intense feelings with their behavior. We don’t have the full story, but I don’t know if you need it when it’s clear that the Goys are the ones who walked across the street toward Spaide. That fact is telling, to me, as is the fact that Mr Goy threatens physical violence and repeatedly calls him a pussy, with his wife egging him on in pretty much the same bitterly confrontational tone. It’s clear who the aggressors are, in my mind. It’s entirely possible that if we interviewed various neighbors, friends, and family members with a more complete knowledge of the situation that we’d find some instances in which Spaide may have escalated the situation or could have handled some things differently. But in this final episode, it’s clear who the aggressors are.

So someone who’s already mentally on high alert sees a pretty big guy and a companion walking toward him, behaving aggressively and speaking loudly and aggressively. In nature, when male primates, from which we evolved, show dominance, they throw large stones and shake trees. This is basically what Goy was doing at this point. He was showing Spaide, someone who was already triggered and already prepared for lethal combat, that he was capable of violence.

At that moment, Spaide’s switch gets flipped to the ‘on’ position. Adrenaline and emotions begin to flood his brain. He can no longer think rationally. Spaide’s brain, doing what it was engineered to do over millions of years of human evolution, scanned his environment for threats, and then simplified his decision making mechanisms so that he didn’t have to put much thinking or analysis into what he was about to do next. Like our more primitive ancestors: he saw danger in front of him; he neutralized the danger.

After a few moments, he realizes what he’s done. He reckons with the fact that whereas 15 minutes before he was just Jeff Spaide - veteran, citizen, uncle, and neighbor - he was now Jeff Spaide, double murderer, who would at minimum face the rest of his life in a very dangerous prison environment. That was something he wasn’t prepared to face, and frankly, a life he felt he didn’t deserve. So he checked out.

I think folk are assuming facts not in evidence. Yeah, my suspicion is that the Goys were the bigger assholes, but I haven’t seen
any real detail
about either them or Spaide, the past incidents, or the precursors to the video. Assuming Spaide lived alone, I’d imagine the guns were either kept loaded or in proximity to the ammo.

As I posted above, the vid I saw starts w/ the shooter calling the male victim a “scummy MF.” Anyone hear/see what happened before that? How exactly did he ask them to stop throwing snow on his property?

Yeah, after that, the Goys did seem the more aggressive. And my suspicion is that they were less than polite in whatever happened BEFORE the tape started rolling, but we don’t KNOW.

I haven’t seen much about Spaide’s profession, family status, affiliations, etc. And not much about the Gioys other than that they have an autistic son.

Final questions for those of you familiar w/ firearms. I’m often confused when the number of shots fired seems to greatly exceed deaths/injuries. Any idea what handgun he used? As I count, he shot approx 7 times from maybe 10 feet, before the male vic and then the female show any reaction. How do you miss stationary targets that many times at such close range? Then he shoots the woman 2 times at very close range, and the man 1 time. Approx 11-12 total shots or so? Does that empty a clip?

I’ve only shot handguns a limited number of times at ranges. I can understand the difficulties of hitting a moving target at any distance, and the difficulties related to stress/adrenaline/etc. But how do you fail to kill someone shooting them 1-2x at point blank range?

12 shots w/ the handgun. how many times did Spaide shoot them? I didn’t count the shots, but it seemed as tho he

These things always seem to happen at totally inopportune times.

It’s possible he actually struck Mr Goy and he didn’t go down right away, and Goy might not have even realized he was hit until he was hit in a place where it counted (the center torso).

A bullet that hits fat and ricochets either out of the body or somewhere that isn’t an artery may just feel strange. A bullet that hits an artery or an organ will take someone down pretty damn quick. It’s possible the first bullet or two actually did hit the victims but not in a place that caused an immediate serious injury.

That’s one reason why police officers are trained to unload their clips and not fire warning shots – armed assailants can shoot right back and even kill despite being wounded, and sometimes despite being even mortally wounded.

Two people are dead; you have an absolute right to over-think this. I realize that this is naive… but I was always of the opinion that… no matter how often it happens, when a neighbor victimizes you, you call the cops. You call and call and call again… every time it happens… until the cops are motivated to give the aggressors 30 days in jail or something.

Hopefully they’ll have learned something… but if they don’t and they become threatening once again, you call again. That was how I was raised, what I was told, what I’ve heard community policing officers say. If they keep starting shit, keep calling.

Eventually, even the judge will get sick of them and may sentence them to a few years to make an example out of what amounts to overly-aggressive asshole neighbors. And their little children? Off to CPS ( and won’t they have a nice few years trying to get them back).

They were. Using google summer street view definitely reveals that even in this incident they are pushing snow across the street onto his property. Where they are pushing the snow is where he can park his vehicle on his property without using the drive-way.

I guess they decided he has to give up property and that he doesn’t need the space and let lesser fortunate people use if for themselves. In street view turn it around to see what the Goyes were living in. I get a jealous to the point of hatred “we hate people that are doing better than us” vibe.

I haven’t seen any video that starts earlier, but the witness statements just say that the Goys started throwing snow on Spaide’s property. They don’t mention any earlier provocation by Spaide.

Yeah - on the very infrequent times we’ve spoken w/ suburban cops or village officials about “neighbor” issues, they’ve consistently said to call them. That is what they are supposed to do, they are trained, and they do not want individuals taking things into their own hands. (Examples - we’ve called the city to ask what the law is regarding a barking dog, and backyard fires. Each time, they said to call the cops or the fire department. We never followed up w/ official complaints.)

On our part, we didn’t, because each incident seemed too small to call the cops, or we didn’t want to have the person we complained about talk us down within the neighbors. In my limited experience, it is not unusual for the person who complains to be viewed more unfavorably than the person who did the behavior complained about. No, I really don’t need to be friends w/ my neighbors, but given the choice, I’d just as soon be “on friendly terms” with them. I don’t think I’d want the rep of “the guy who is always calling the cops.”

It is also tough, trying to figure out how much of a disturbance you ought to have to tolerate, just living in close contact w/ others. For example, we tend to go to bed early. We understand that people like to have outdoor parties in nice weather. But how loud should we have to tolerate, how late, how often?

I can imagine a situation where, if someone feels they have been putting up w/ something for a long time, the FIRST time they confront the offender, they might appear to be over-reacting in response to that single incident. But the person is pissed about a whole series of ongoing things.

Yeah, I should bay acreage in the middle of nowhere…

I posted this above:

It’s possible that Goy was hit by one of the first 6 shots and didn’t react, but I think this is unlikely considering his extreme reaction to the seventh.

In the first fusillade of 9 shots, Goy and his wife were hit once each, and one of them may or may not have been hit by the ninth bullet. All the 3 remaining shots with the hand gun were delivered at close range and hit, as did the 4 shots with the rifle.

I read one book about handguns where the author recommends 9 mm calibre rather than a hand cannon, because it will be easier to control and put multiple rounds on target. So, according to this school, if you shoot someone you will indeed fire multiple times. Note that the U.S. armed forces, for instance, issues service pistols chambered in 9mm.

Yeah, that enclosed front porch looks a little cheap, there is an AC unit upstairs, and it seems the only house w/ that sort of pull-in parking, but didn’t really look like a dump. Funny enough, there seem to be shovels and a sled on the porch even in the summer street view! This was a long time coming!

The shooter’s house, OTOH, looked realy nice. W/the overhead satellite, I really like the woods behind. Looks like there is even a quarry he coulda gone to and thrown stuff into!

I know how inaccurate Zillow’s estimates are, but it sure looks like a lot of house could be had in that neighborhood for under $200k!

Most houses have doorbells. I find it difficult to believe that rational (stable) people would rather scream and curse in the middle of the street at the top of their lungs, like an braying ass, than walk a few steps across that street and push a doorbell.

The conversation doesn’t have to be adversarial; no one has to beat their chest and screech like Tarzan. In a level tone of voice, with sarcasm left home, most people can settle their problems like adults. Some problems can be resolved by agreement; some can even be fixed together. Where parking spaces are concerned, what is the law? What as allowable, what is not allowable? What can be agreed to? What is reasonable vs unreasonable? What is a good compromise? Can phone numbers be exchanged in case something comes up which is a problem?

Then again, some people just choose to be deceptive, deceitful, and underhanded… but IMHO those people are best handled by the police and the courts.

Depending on the pistol, 12 is a middle-of-the-pack magazine capacity.
Others have mentioned the issues with accuracy under stress and shot placement effect, and of course the former will affect the later.

I absolutely don’t want to advance any class-based hypothetical story lines — I can imagine equally damning story lines for upper class, lower class, upper middle class etc.

However, as a point of information, many of the buildings on the Goy’s side of the street are two family units. There are two mailboxes on their building, but I can’t tell if there are two active addresses. There’s a good chance they were only occupying half of the structure.