I’ve just returned from a round of golf. I probably had “one too many” in the clubhouse, so please excuse my reiterating what I posted to this board yesterday:
Gore Vidal’s observation:** “…the average American’s gullibility and intellect is directly related to his bruised knuckles…”** an obvious reference to the long arms of an Orangutan Ape.
I’m sure someone will correct me, but as I understand it, the strongest link between Iraq and al Qaeda is the fundamentalist group Ansaral-Islam. However, that group operates in Kurdish territory, outside Saddam’s control.
I am aware of the “training camp”, but I haven’t got any more confidence that Iraq is responsible for training terrorists than the US training the 9-11 hijackers in commercial airline flight.
While there very well may be state-level connections, the evidence is tenuous at best, and the circumstantial evidence tends to point the other way.
As for the mural, Iraq is littered with huge posters and murals of Saddam Hussein. Therefore, I am not convinced that this particular 9-11 mural reflects the attitudes of everyday Iraqis.
That’s good, because our beef is not with the everyday Iraqis. And you’re right, I think the strongest link between al-qaida and Iraq is ansar al-Islam. Supposedly many in ansar al-Islam consider themselves to be Afghanistan veterans. And they are busy fighting Saddam’s enemies in the north, the PUK.
The strongest link (visible) between SH and everyday terrorism I think is Salman Pak. From ex-officials’ reports there are Islamic militants being trained in hijacking and whatnot, they keep the fedayeen trainees separate from the Islamics, they have a plane there, the UN is aware of it…they call it an anti-terrorism camp though, so I guess it’s ok.
http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/wwwboard/messages/830.html
http://www.intelmessages.org/Messages/National_Security/wwwboard/messages/832.html
I don’t really need a proven link between al-qaida and Saddam for anything, just thought that the resistance to the idea is a bit weird, all things considered.
Are you also familiar with the School of the Americas?
Seems we live in a glass house on this one.
Oh, we do. I’m even familiar with the United States Armed Forces…they trained thousands of young men to kill thousands of others, with assorted weaponry. Some of those people went on to become full-fledged right wingnuts, formed their own militias, bombed things or became snipers in DC. Ayuh. :::nods:::
Are you agreeing with the premise that running terror-training camps leads to major atrocities, or was that just thrown in.
Yes, I am agreeing that using the existence of these training camps in Iraq, particularly without any direct link to al-Qaeda or US targeted terrorism, as a justification for war is an idea worthy of ridicule.
oh. That must be another thread.
This one is the idiocy of people who think 9/11 and Iraq might be related. 
I hope I’m on topic enough; as I read this, I realize that if it’s true, it explains a lot about the kinds of stuff coming out of the USA towards Canada, France, and (I’m presuming), Germany, Mexico, Russia et. al. Hopefully this kind of stuff will go away by the 2004 elections. 
I don’t doubt it at all. Just watch Jay Leno when he asks people on the street questions. I am no longer surprised at the abject ignorance of most Americans.
For a few months now I’ve jokingly been suggesting that perhaps the United States has now evolved to being so important on the World Stage that we, the citizens of the Rest of the World, should ALSO be allowed to vote in your Presidential elections. I know, I know… it’s a crazy idea… but it’s only meant to be a joke…
The joke also suggest that we don’t wanna vote on your Congress or Senate - you guys can sort that out - but the one factor which REALLY freaks us out is who runs the Oval Office. We’d REALLY like to have a say, please!
Anyways, gee… no offence to my lovely American friends here on this postboard… you’re all wonderfully articulate and worldy and open minded - but wow! After reading this thread, I suspect that my joke might have more merit than at first I thought. No one, absolutely no one in Australia has ever once come within 10 light years of believing 9/11 was linked to anyone other than OBL and his Arab Afghan cronies. I’m sure that’s the general consensus throughout the entire world. Iraq was TOTALLY in the clear on that one.
You know… I think most of us are safe in saying that the Vietnam War was a mistake. Certainly we Aussies lent a helping hand to you Americans during that conflict too, so we’re entitled to speak with some degree of authority on the matter. It’s too early to say whether this war will bog down into another Vietnam - but I feel pretty safe in predicting that in the future, history will show this war to be an amazingly reckless one - based as much out of a desire for vengeance for 9/11 as it was on anything substantial. Perhaps, some good might still come out of it… who knows… however… unless some epic WMD’s show up in the next few weeks I suspect this whole imbroglio will turn out to be a real low water mark for America’s standing in the world… any future claims to being the “World’s Remaining Superpower” will instantly be met with cries of “in whose eyes? Being a superpower ALSO means behaving with the dignity of one too.”
My heart still goes out to the innocent victims of 9/11, and their families - no doubts about it. But never, in my wildest dreams did I think that within just 18 months from that dreadful day, that the US would be in open war with a country in the Middle East. It’s like the US went from wanting to solve a crime to just plain wanting blood - at any cost.
It’s a real shame. I rather think Thomas Jefferson and George Washington would be crying true tears of sadness I suspect.
You never know of course… in 3 weeks from now, in Saddam’s home town of Tikrit, the Coalition forces might find enough chemical and bio weapons to kill a million people. In one fell swoop, the entire World Opinion will change overnight… who knows…
No bombing without representation. Not a bad idea.
On second thoughts, “no annihilation without representation” sounds better.
Here’s one for ya. Sadly.
This poll was taken in October, months before Powell presented his evidence to the UN.
This question may be slightly OT (wrt Iraqis being the actual hijackers), but here’s a telling question from it anyway:
http://people-press.org/reports/print.php3?PageID=648
And broader findings from the poll:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=645
This is why the conservatives’ claims that “a vast majority of Americans support this war” should be taken with a huge grain of salt, IMO.
I’ve no doubt that’s the consensus. However we had to look elsewhere for “cronies” too because the Afghan crowd were the people least likely to be the ultimate planners/executors of the attacks, having to avoid travel and open communications as they did. OBL was a fugitive at the time, middlemen were necessary, as were the enormous sums of money they had to generate…answers here would range from “OBL” to “Iraq” to “Israel” to “the US government” to who was really behind the attacks. I’ve heard: “Iraq never attacked us. We should really be blaming Saudi Arabia!” Such is this country - it takes all kinds as they say, and we’ve got 'em all.
Given the low voter turnout in US presidential elections, and the fact that voting is compulsory in Australia (IIRC), the Aussie vote would become extremely important! You would experience the ultimate joy of non-stop US-style election campaigns… perhaps you should rethink this.
Something would have to be done about the Electoral College, though. Not that that’s a bad thing.
About 3,000 Americans were killed 9/11. So far, more than 3,000 guided missiles have been fired at Iraq. Funny how these things work out.
What’s reciprocal about it?
I think Simbelmyne is just laying claim to being one of the 40%.
Updated statistics from the LA Times about American idiocy:
“Eight in 10 Americans now accept the Bush administration’s contention … that Hussein has “close ties” to Al Qaeda … and 60% of Americans say they believe Hussein bears at least some responsibility for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks — a charge even the administration hasn’t levied against him.”
Well, not DIRECTLY levied , but the intentional implication has surely been there.
Thats quite an increase from the OP’s 40%.
Get this:
“Exactly half said the United States should take military action against Iran if it continues to move toward nuclear-weapon development.”
So how long until Iran was behind 9/11, too?
link: http://www.latimes.com/la-war-poll5apr05,0,3145206.story