5-pin DIN connectors - are there multiple similar designs?

I have instruments that use “5-pin DIN” connectors. The male plugs have a shell about 13.5 mm OD with an alignment tab on the ID. Inside the shell there are 5 pins arranged in what looks like a 6-pin circle with one missing.

Needing some extras, I bought “MIDI” cables at Radio Shack. They also say they have DIN connectors, and they are very similar - same size shell with tab, and similar looking pins. But they aren’t compatible. I tried several and pushed harder than I probably should have, and though the shells fit, and the pins start to fit if I tilt it so only 2 or 3 mate, I can’t make all 5 pins fit at the same time.

When I look closely, it appears the MIDI cables have pins that would fit maybe 6.3 to a circle rather than an integer 6. Lines through the centers of the outermost pairs of pins are not quite parallel, as they are on the instrument connectors.

So, I thought these were all just “5 pin DIN” connectors, but it appears not. Are there multiple types with very close designs???

“Two different five-pin plugs exist, known as 180 degree and 240 (sometimes called 270) degree after the pin arrangement”

http://www.fact-index.com/d/di/din_plug.html

There are a host of DIN configurations as GorillaMan’s link probably says (I’ll check after OK )

I never had any problem using 5-pin DIN audio leads as MIDI leads tho’ Maybe you should be getting them somewhere other than Radio Shack? :slight_smile:

Ahh. . . just re-read the OP

Oo myterious, what sort of instruments? I can imagine that a connector for Geiger counter would be a bit less likely to fit.

There is always the possibility that it is, in fact, exactly what it looks like. Manufacturers will often create a proprietary connector by slightly modifying an existing design, such as by cutting out one pin and/or filling in the mating hole.

Here’s the instrument:
http://www.hartscientific.com/products/tweeners.htm

Napier:

Looks like you’re doing some temperature metrology stuff.

I operated a temperature metrology lab for the Department of Energy for a number of years, and now I work at a university where I do quite a few temperature calibrations. We have SPRTs, bridges, triple-point baths, stirred calibration baths, etc.

I also see you’re in Maryland. Near NIST, per chance? (I used to live in Gaithersburg, and would correspond with Greg Strouse at NIST every once in a while.)

I’m not saying I’m an expert in this discipline, but I have been involved with it for quite a while. If you need help with anything, feel free to drop me a line.

magcraft@main-net.com

GorillaMan’s link looks right. I’m chasing down that road now.

Crafter_Man, I DO have a question for you. How do calibrations of industrial platinum RTDs drift? That is, if you use a Callendar - Van Dusen calibration implemented with the A and B terms (this is all above freezing), how much does Rtpw (resistance at the triple point) change with age and exposure? How much does A change (this is very close to the question of how much alpha changes)? How much does B change (the quadratic term, which is hardly different in published calibrations for alphas from 375 to 392 anyway)?

Put another way, if one is measuring temps of say 0-500 C, how many degrees will errors be if you only periodically do a 1-point calibration or a 2-point? I understand the math, but don’t have the experience with recalibrating old RTDs to have a statistical sense of how they age.

Napier:

Excellent questions.

First of all, there’s no set formula to absolutely predict how much an RTD (or any instrument or sensor, for that matter) will drift between calibrations. This is because it depends on a number of environmental variables. The “enemies” of an RTD are:

  • Excessive vibration
  • Shock
  • High temperature
  • Thermal shock
  • Over-excitation (over-current)

Minimizing shock & vibration is extremely critical when it comes to an SPRT, since the platinum element is wound in a strain-free fashion. An IPRT is wound in a “semi strain-free” fashion, and is thus a little more forgiving of shock & vibration. But you “pay” for this in terms of inferior repeatability and hysteresis specs.

So since there are many factors that determine how much an RTD drifts, it is impossible to predict drift with 100% certainty. The only way to know for sure is to perform a thorough calibration once per year and see – afterwards - how much it has drifted. But this data is still valuable, since it will give you an idea (within certain confidence limits) how much the RTD will drift between the current calibration and the next calibration.

But what about the very first calibration? What kind of tolerance should you assign it? That’s a good question, and unfortunately there’s not a good answer. The only thing you can do for the first calibration is go on engineering judgment & the drift history of similar RTDs.

Are you curious what kind of drift I’ve found with IPRTs? We have an IPRT that we’ve used for about 5 years as a calibration standard. You can think of it as a “poor man’s SPRT.” I’m at home right now, so I don’t have the calibration data in front of me. I’ll look it up when I get to work tomorrow, and post the data. I’ll provide drift info on R[sub]0[/sub], A, and B. (I think I assign a calibration tolerance of 0.06 °C to it.)

Now some words about calibration:

An RTD should undergo a thorough calibration at least once per year. You’ll need to take at least 3 data points in order to calculate R[sub]0[/sub], A, and B. (That’s a minimum; if you can afford more, take more.) The lowest calibration temperature will be the lowest traceable range for the IPRT; the highest calibration temperature will be the highest traceable range for the IPRT. Most IPRT calibrations are done by comparing it to an SPRT in a stirred bath. Now you may be asking, “I know what range I want the IPRT calibrated over. So what calibration temperatures should I specify?” There are two schools of thought on this:

  1. Spread the calibration temperatures evenly throughout the range. This is true even if you’re only calibrating the IPRT at three temperatures (low, middle, high). This will allow the quadratic or curve fitting software to “sample” the temperature-resistance curve in a more uniform fashion. As an example, if you wanted to calibrate an IPRT at three points between 0.01 °C and 500 °C, you would calibrate the IPRT at 0.01 °C, 250 °C, and 500 °C.

  2. Calibrate the IPRT at temperatures where the SPRT has the lowest uncertainty. Since the SPRT is calibrated using fixed-point cells, it makes sense that the SPRT’s linearization error (which is systematic) will be lowest at these temperatures. So to continue our example, let’s say you wanted to calibrate an IPRT at three points between 0.01 °C and 500 °C. 0.01 °C would definitely be one of the points (TP of water). 231.928 °C (FP of tin) would be the “middle” point. For the “high” point, you would choose 419.527 °C (FP of zinc) or 660.323 °C (FP of aluminum). But keep in mind that the SPRT may not have been calibrated at all of these fixed points. Always examine the SPRT’s calibration certificate to find out what temperatures it was calibrated at.

The current calibration data will allow you to calculate new values for R[sub]0[/sub], A, and B. But before you do that, you should also take the current calibration data and plug it into the quadratic using the previous values for R[sub]0[/sub], A, and B, just to make sure it isn’t out-of-spec. Once you’re satisfied that the current calibration data is “within spec” when using the previous values for R[sub]0[/sub], A, and B, you can go ahead and calculate new values for R[sub]0[/sub], A, and B.

One more thing: The Callendar Van Dusen equation specifies resistance as a function of temperature. For T > 0 °C the equation is a 2nd-order polynomial, and thus the inverse (T vs. R) is simple to derive using the quadratic equation. But I calibrate our IPRTs at T < 0 °C, which turns the Callendar Van Dusen into a 4th-order polynomial. While there are published inverse equations that purport to accurately fit the Callendar Van Dusen equation for T < 0 °C, I don’t trust them. So I actually solved the 4th-order polynomial using equations I found in the CRC Handbook. It was a bitch.

Note that I’m just touching the tip of the iceberg here. If you really want to get anal about the whole thing, you’ll need to do come up with an uncertainty budget or perform an uncertainty analysis. This will allow you to quantitatively justify a tolerance for the IPRT. It combines all errors such as drift, hysteresis, linearization error, stem loss, self heating, signal conditioning and instrumentation (i.e. IPRT readout) error, uncertainty of the SPRT, and uncertainty of the calibration bath.

If you like, I can email you some documents that I’ve written. Drop me a note.

magcraft@main-net.com

Napier:

I checked our IPRT. Here’s the tolerance I assigned to it:

Tolerance = ± 0.08 °C for -100 °C ≤ T < -20 °C
Tolerance = ± 0.05 °C for -20 °C ≤ T ≤ 258 °C

Note that this tolerance is not the same thing as the uncertainty of the IPRT. (The uncertainty is probably lower. But it’s very difficult to nail down the absolute uncertainty, so I don’t even try to calculate it.) The tolerance is simply an error value that I expect the IPRT to be “within” at all times. It takes into account a lot of stuff (handling, vibration, hysteresis, etc.). I wrote an “uncertainty statement” on how I came up with it. I can send it to you if you like.

FYI, here’s how our IPRT has drifted over the past five years:

Year: 1999
R[sub]0[/sub] = 99.968 Ω
A = 3.9107070E-03
B = -5.7774440E-07

Year: 2000
R[sub]0[/sub] = 99.968 Ω
A = 3.9113980E-03
B = -5.7865240E-07

Year: 2001
R[sub]0[/sub] = 99.9702 Ω
A = 3.9117100E-03
B = -5.8201200E-07

Year: 2002
R[sub]0[/sub] = 99.9809 Ω
A = 3.9106470E-03
B = -5.8136780E-07

Year: 2003
R[sub]0[/sub] = 99.9836 Ω
A = 3.9110180E-03
B = -5.8394500E-07

Crafter_Man, you have certainly got the goods.

I’m trying to deal with RTD’s in an industrial setting we’re trying to improve. I think we need to build corrections into our machinery and am trying to guess how much of the error is first order, second, and so forth; and how much these things change. The data you posted are just exquisite for this, though it’s only one sample and probably not an example of the cheesy little sensors we have today. I’m about to run off and analyze them.

You might be interested in some of my data. Here are the R0, A and B parameters for a bunch of calibration equations I got off the web for different Alpha values, and for an old bent-up Hart probe of unknown provenance, some Omega RTDs I found laying about the place (in a drawer and in a pile of heated, discolored ones and a pile of unused ones), a couple of Hart “secondary PRTs”, and six examples of the RTD’s I’m dealing with. The six examples have weird values - it turns out they are generating a high-impedance DC voltage of around 0.2 V according to my handheld DMM, with the sensing element being positive with respect to the sheathing of the RTD. So I don’t think the calibration equation is appropriate for explaining what my ohmeter shows.

BTW I got my values for the experimental measurements in several ways. The “secondary PRT’s” came from their own calibration reports from Hart. All the others came from comparisons to the PRTs in a drywell at 4 temperatures. I’m doing linear regressions for all these, not using any analytic forms.
id r0 a b

A3750000 100.000 .003810000 -.000000602
A3850000 100.000 .003908020 -.000000580
A3850550 100.000 .003908300 -.000000578
A3902000 100.000 .003960000 -.000000593
A3902996 100.000 .003961910 -.000000589
A3911000 100.000 .003969200 -.000000585
A3920000 100.000 .003978690 -.000000587
A3926000 100.000 .003984800 -.000000587
A3927865 100.000 .003987031 -.000000567
HARTBENT 99.297 .003938565 -.000000586
OMDRAWER 100.047 .003914416 -.000000508
OMHEATED 100.017 .003906762 -.000000553
OMUNUSED 99.992 .003902060 -.000000547
PRT0758 99.666 .003987031 -.000000567
PRT0760 99.683 .003986975 -.000000566
SAMPLE_A 99.771 .004021314 -.000000992
SAMPLE_B 99.513 .004121808 -.000001343
SAMPLE_C 99.292 .004173555 -.000001486
SAMPLE_D 99.697 .004014182 -.000001029
SAMPLE_E 99.634 .004012631 -.000000987
SAMPLE_F 99.501 .004064742 -.000001148

Napier:

The discussion is getting quite specific, and is probably outside the realm & stated purpose of GQ. (In other words, it’s very likely we are the only two dopers who are paying attention to this thread.) I would be more than happy to assist you, but we should probably do it via private email. Can you shoot me off an email? My email address is:

magcraft@main-net.com