I agree that many children go through gender expression phases. I do not agree that kids are being diagnosed with GID and then suffering psycological damage as a result. GID is not just gender play. Yes, obviously, in diagnosing GID in the young, one has to make sure it’s not just play. I have no idea why half the people in this thread think they’re more qualified to make that distinction than the people who live with and professionally examine the child.
It’s cited in the article as the only long-term study. A psychologist and a psychiatrist are both quoted as claiming that most GID boys identify as males as adults (the psychologists estimates between 80-90%).
I don’t know what you mean by “allowed to be.” TG is psychiatric condition, not an act of will.
You’re talking about this:
The article continues,
So this one guy who believes in treating GID with behavior modification says he can do it a lot, that’s your cite?
And for the part about “falling out” out of it:
It doesn’t seem to me in context that he’s saying kids start transition and then stop, and suffer psychological damage as a result, but that because they’re already aware that kids play with gender, people who treat this condition are very careful to be sure of the diagnosis before recommending transition. Which is what you and others seem to be denying.
That was one of three items I cited from the article. The other two items were an objective study and an objective psychiatrist. The fact that some GLBT groups don’t like the psychologist doesn’t mean much to me, since (at least in the article), they don’t actually point at anything that’s wrong with his work or his results, they’re just worried that it will encourage the “reparative therapy” morons. You sniped the part where it says that Schultz is careful to separate himself from that stuff.
He was saying that he doesn’t like to encourage transitioning at such an early age because the “vast majority” of GID kids are not TG. The terms are not synonomous. TG is only ONE possible cause of GID. That’s what I’m trying to say. It’s too early for the parents to decide that this kid is TG, when there is a strong statistical chance he may not be.
You are responsible to show that this guy, who is doing something completely different from the majority of the psychiatric profession in treating this condition, is a reliable source. Using his claim of “80 to 90 percent” success in his own work (for which he is presumably paid) without any idea of where he came up with that figure or under what conditions is ridiculous.
Again, your conclusion is based on nothing at all. You just pulled that “strong statistical chance” out of almost empty air. What you are saying is that children should not transition, ever, correct? That it is possible they have this condition, but that we should intentionally not treat it because sometimes other kids don’t have it? Or that we just can’t ever know for sure if a kid has it?
At what age, I want to know again, do you think we can start treating GID? Are there any conditions under which Dr. Dio would accept that a child was trans? How did he come to decide that the psychological damage from potentially stopping transition is so much greater than that of not treating a real condition?
Let’s say it is just a phase and later on she decides to live as a boy. I still don’t see the harm in letting her present as she feels comfortable now.
Everyone’s objection to this seems to be, if she’s not GID, but she lives as a girl for a while, it will “mess her up”. From what I can see, it’s forcing someone to live as a gender they don’t identify with that causes problems. If this is what she wants to do, the worst that will happen is that she’ll be embarrassed about it later on.
The problem here is not with her, but the society that can’t handle ambiguities. The emphatic way some have claimed that there is no way a child could know or understand his or her gender makes it seem like they are less concerned with Nicole’s comfort than their own. It seems silly to say that gender isn’t known at that age. I’m pretty sure we all knew if we were boys or girls without even thinking about it. I’m betting Nicole does, too. But, even if she doesn’t, what’s the big deal with letting her wear a dress for a while?
You don’t start treating a condition until you can verify that it actually exists. If A GID kid is not transgendered (and most of them are not), then transitioning is the WRONG TREATMENT and the WRONG treatment is never a good thing.
It seems to me like the parents just WANT this kid to be TG for some reason and are encouraging him to believe that he is for reasons of their own. A 5 year old is too young for parents to be playing those kinds of games with him, forcing him to wear drag, treating him like a girl, making him into public cause, saying they don’t care if he gets bullied at school. It’s all too premature (and I suspect) self-serving (not to mention just a little bit creepy), No one has diagnosed this kid as being transgendered, so what the fuck are the parents doing “treating” a diagnosis which has not been made?
There has been such emphasis on childhood transgender that it may have started to give this impression. I doubt that most were so definite in childhood about it. Many of us—probably most of us—are late bloomers. I suspect (based on my own experience) that many of us late bloomers would have come out in childhood or youth if we could. And many just don’t get a clue until they’re adults.
No, it all seems fine to me in this case. To answer your other question, yes, we should be very very careful; in this point your analogy to diabetes is a good one, since a mistake in diagnosing either will have a very negative effect on the kid’s life. Of course, not diagnosing it at all has the same problem; so great care needs to be taken, and it seems to me that’s what’s going on this case. If you’ll read upthread I did point out that I thought what was happening so far seemed fine to me. The only quibble i’d have is that this kind of publicity probably isn’t the best thing to happen for the girl personally, although it may help to educate on the issue.
Nothing, at home, but letting him go to school like that would make him vulnerable to bullying, and it’s way too premature to go full bore with the pronoun changes. Chances are, he’s going to grow out of this.
You do not have enough information to make that statement. You have yet to back it up in any real way.
Whoa, slow down, you’re getting carried away and making wild assertions that are factually incorrect, unsupported by the news article. These parents haven’t forced anything on the child. They’re gently supporting the child’s needs. This is no game. These parents have been demonstrating admirable responsibility and sanity in caring for their child. It certainly wasn’t their idea, it was Nicole’s.
I just have to say, nothing sets off human beings’ hysterical reactions like gender. Even in someone otherwise as intelligent and informed as Diogenes. What is it about gender anyway that triggers such deep anxieties and fears in people? More than religion, politics, money, or even love. Why is gender the issue that tweaks people’s heebie jeebies worse than any other subject?
You’re the one trying to make a specific diagnosis, not me. The information in the article says that most GID boys do not identify as female when they grow up. This kid has not been diagnosed as TG, so why are you assuming he’s the exception rather than the rule? What information do you have to back up your specific diagnosis?
So in fact what we have is that a fair bunch of those who identify with the opposite gender as kids are not in fact transgender, and also that a fair bunch of those who are transgender did not so identify as small children?
I don’t care about gender issues. What bothers me is people trying to treat 5 year olds for conditions which have not been formally diagnosed. You don’t give a kid insulin if you don’t know he has diabetes.
As much as I hate to pull out the stupid “some of my best friends” card, it just so happens that one of my oldest and closest friends, a former bandmate, came out to me as TG about a year ago. I knew this person for more than 15 years as a male and never suspected a thing. He was outwardly very masculine. He cultivated a biker image, had tattoos, wore leather and chains, rode a Harley, drove a pickup, played bass in heavy metal bands and dated only women (sometimes several at once). A couple of years ago, he told me that he had accepted a gig playing bass in a failrly well known Minneapolis-based band with all transgendered members. He told me he was going to play in drag but at first played it off like he was just doing it for a paycheck and didn’t take it seriously. Over the next several months, he got more and more involved with the Minneapolis TG community and eventually called me to have some coffee with him. He met me at a Starbucks in full drag and came out as a she. She said that she had been hiding this secret for years and had adopted an ultra-macho image basically as a cover.
I’ve been as supportive as possible. I call her by her girl name, tell her our friendship hasn’t changed and try to relate the same way. It’s a little bit jarring, though, to have one of your buddies – one of your GUY buddies – suddenly turn into a woman. I was also shamefully self-conscious about being seen with her in public at first. I didn’t want people to think that I was WITH her. Stupid, I know. I got over it. That first day at Starbucks, though, I found myself talking like Barry White and ordering black coffee rather than my usual green tea. I was a :wally.
Anyway, I’m not freaked out by gender identity issues, I’m just instinctively protective of kids, especially kids as young as this boy in the story. If he/she was 14, I wouldn’t give it a second thought.
SHOW ME WHERE I MADE THIS SUPPOSED DIAGNOSIS.
Is this really “treatment”? No one suggested or is forcing this course of action on Nicole other than herself. I just don’t see “going along with it” as similar to giving insulin to a kid who doesn’t need it.
You’re calling him a “she.” When was it disagnosed that this little boy is not a little boy? You’re using words like “treatment” and “transition” which I took as an implication that you were assuming the kid was TG? Is that not correct? Are you conceding that the kid might NOT be TG? If so, then what is your problem with ME saying that?
Is there anything that doesn’t make you vulnerable to bullying? I’m assuming he’s in kindergarten, and yeah, little kids can be dicks, but, if, as everyone says, gender play is pretty common at this age, maybe it won’t be such a big deal to anyone. I would think she faces less chances of being bullied if her classmates grow up with it.
I think that entering the kid into school and thereby setting his public identity as a female imposes a level of certainty and permanence that is not yet warranted and is more than “going along with” the child’s experimentation at home. A 5 year old doesn’t understand that kind of permanence.