A BIG THANK YOU, a You Welcome and A BIG SCREW YOU

[Spiff]

A question for the OP kanicbird:

The U.S. leadership went into this war against the explicit wishes of the U.N.

Now, the U.S. wants the U.N. to have a “vital voice” (Bush’s words) in the rebuilding of Iraq.

Do you see an element of hypocrisy here similar to the hypocrisy you decry in your OP?

[carrot]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
I went into this before, any media coverage of anti-war protests can be used to support the moral of the Iraqi forces and demoralize our forces.

So, only people that agree with the war should be allowed to say anything during war time? (Y’know, the coverage of the polls and such.)

Anyway, morale isn’t really going to help you any when you’re getting the fuck bombed out of your cities and military installations.

We are not there to take control of Iraq, we were there to get rid of a murderous gov’t.

…and replace it with one we like.

No I was not, My message was take out this dictator before he gets bigger & badder bombs.

So you weren’t saying “FREE IRAQ!” Didn’t think so.

I started thinking about the people of Iraq slightly before the invasion and at the same time started to form an idea what moral obligation was.

So, when will your threads about all the other countries with ‘murderours dictators’ be available?

Blatantly taken out of context - It’s the economy stupid! (the context which it should be taken)

First of all, you brought up the September 11th attacks. Second of all, Bush’s plan was NOT working. Wow, he gave you 300 dollars, so he’s automatically got the economy going again? Horseshit. Even now he’s managed to push through a tax cut for the upper classes, something that never would have happened without the war going on. You haven’t shown that it’s not a distraction. Put up or shut up.

Then you haven’t been reading what I posted or you are living in a hole in the ground.

Could be either, really.

Iraqi were being slaughtered under Sadam already.

Oh, so it’s okay that you don’t give a shit how many we kill, they were being killed already, yes?

I was talking about the other countries with troops in Iraq. Who’s not reading now? You asked:

Also what is the total US body count? What is the total US lives lost due to the war protestors (including people dying in ambulances stuck in traffic due to protestors)?

**Not something I would expect to be reported but did hear at least one comments on the news about 3 ambulances being stuck in protestor traffic.

**I’m tired of this bullshit.

CITE?

Also, see Lissa’s post. There is no WAY that this would be ignored.

I don’t know what the status of them were.

Amazing that no one else seems to either.

I don’t Clinton was capable of launching such an attack as I stated in a previous thread.

Any reasoning behind this?

[tdn]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
I like to leave the decisions to the ones who planned and executed the war. After all that’s how it works doesn’t it? the ones who take the land get to decide?

First of all, let me apologize for my “ragheads” comment. It was out of line.

But my point still stands. You are implying that those who opposed the war are hypocrits who have no business in rebuilding Iraq. This is simply not true. People who opposed the war – for the benefit of the Iraqi people – and want to help in the rebuilding – for the benefit of the Iraqi people – are totally self-consistant. It is not hypocrasy to simultaneously want peace and prosperity.

But this attitude of “You wouldn’t help us before, so butt out now” smacks of childishness. GTFU.

[Misery_Loves_Co]

'Nuther question for the OP -

You agree with my points? great -

Please reconcile for me the following:
“You fuckers were against it, now you can’t play” (dilstillate of the OP’s point 3)
with
“We will need to band together as a world community in order to ensure the successful rebuilding of Iraq” (my point)

[Earthworm_Jim]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
**You are combining 2 posts from various places in this thread and drawing a conclusion that doesn’t exist. **

Nope. Need to see it again? Here it is:

*Originally posted by kanicbird ***
Screw the French, Russians and Germans, NO YOU CAN’T HAVE ANY INPUT AS TO The Rebuilding…Screw the congressmen and house members who opposed the war and no want to be incharge of the rebuilding. **

*Originally posted by peepthis *
**[kanicbird] is referring to Congressmen and women who opposed fighting the war, but now want to shape post-war Iraq. In other words, they didn’t want anything to do with the means, but now want to have a piece of the ends. **

Originally posted by Beelzebubba
So, if I opposed with the war, I should have no views on or input regarding post-war Iraq? Justify, please.

Originally posted by kanicbird
**I don’t have time to go into this right now but in short, views - yes, input - why should you have any? **

Originally posted by Beelzebubba**
So, you would silence those who hold dissenting opinions?**

Originally posted by kanicbird**
No, as stated above they are entitled to their views, but since they are currently out of power as elected by the American people they have no right to act.**

You included the Frech, Germans, and Russians in your “Screw the X” parties who wish to help rebuild Iraq. You then backed up this statement by saying they were not elected by the American people and not in power. But maybe you just forgot that you orignally included non-Americans in nearly the same breath as American dissenters. Perhaps you wish to rephrase your answer to include all parties that should have no say in rebuilding Iraq?

Regarding elections - well, last I checked Congress members are elected. So when you speak of not being elected, you must be talking about those elections we have on who gets to be on what Congressional task force. Or possibly when we vote to go to war in the first place.

No? Those aren’t the votes you’re talking about? Then surely you must understand that those Congress members who disagreed with the war, having been voted in by the American people, are representative of the American people, and are currently ‘in power’ even if they’re representative of a minority of the population. So please, elaborate on this ‘you get no input due to election results’ idea of yours. Or are we back to mob rule, where only those in the majority will be heard, and the dissenters will be silenced?

Perhaps you wish to change your answer regarding restricting certain congress members from being included in any post-war decision making? Obviously, elections have nothing to do with it.

**Cheap oil would be a benefit to many americans, a free Iraq would be a benefit to Iraqis, Another ‘friendly’ nation in that area would be a benefit to both, taking the WMD away from Sadam would be a benefit to almost every nation on earth.

**
OK, fine. How does this affect your stance on who rebuilds what?

And, am I the only one who sees a fundamental disconnect between these two statements of yours?
**

Thanks you for your service and protecting our freedom. Thank you for bringing freedom to an oppressed people **

**

Some country has something some other country wants. The second country goes in and takes it by killing the defending countries forces. Once the second country gets it they decide what is done with it. Get over it, this is how the world works, politics, business and two-year-olds. If you activally opposed a expansion of your place of work but it was done anyway would you really expect your input into the project to be considered? If they let you do anything it will be just to shut you up.**

Ahh, the sweet ring of liberty, where might makes right, the majority makes all of the decisions, and you’re lucky if the victor allows you to shut up.

Interesting society you’d have there.

[The_Great_Unwashed]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
thank you The Great Unwashed
**

What’s it called when that happens? There has to be a word.

Just in case, I’ll invent one, hey everybody I’ve just been kanicbirded.

And, your welcome.

[kanicbird]

The U.S. leadership went into this war against the explicit wishes of the U.N.

Now, the U.S. wants the U.N. to have a “vital voice” (Bush’s words) in the rebuilding of Iraq.

Do you see an element of hypocrisy here similar to the hypocrisy you decry in your OP?

I see the hypocracy of allowing the UN to have a vital voice as they have proved themselves ineffective (at least to me)

So, only people that agree with the war should be allowed to say anything during war time? (Y’know, the coverage of the polls and such.)

no, BUT (REALLY FUCKEN BIG AND SMELLY BUT) People have to be held accountable and responsible for what they say and the forseable results.

We are not there to take control of Iraq, we were there to get rid of a murderous gov’t.

…and replace it with one we like.

And this is getting stupid, do you really expect us to replace it with a gov’t that hates us?

No I was not, My message was take out this dictator before he gets bigger & badder bombs.

So you weren’t saying “FREE IRAQ!” Didn’t think so.

How many times do you want to see this on your screen?

So, when will your threads about all the other countries with ‘murderours dictators’ be available?

See above about moral obligation.

First of all, you brought up the September 11th attacks

in response to the economy (stupid). (I just had to get that in)

Second of all, Bush’s plan was NOT working.

Because we were attacked…. Hey we can go around this circle all day.

You haven’t shown that it’s not a distraction. Put up or shut up.

And you have not shown it was, the fact that we both know about the points you brough up seem to infer that it’s not a distraction or an ineffective distraction.

Also what is the total US body count? What is the total US lives lost due to the war protestors (including people dying in ambulances stuck in traffic due to protestors)?

quote:

Not something I would expect to be reported but did hear at least one comments on the news about 3 ambulances being stuck in protestor traffic.

I’m tired of this bullshit.

CITE?

Also, see Lissa’s post. There is no WAY that this would be ignored.

Yea, fucken right, how can you get a cite of something not being reported.

I have heard many protest over the years for various subjects, Most in major metro areas, many that block traffic. I have never heard one time that someone dies because they were stuck in such traffic but common sense says it MUST happen just due the the number of people in metro areas. The only conclusion till I have more evidence is that it’s not reported.

I don’t Clinton was capable of launching such an attack as I stated in a previous thread.

Any reasoning behind this?

Yes, IMHO it is not in his character, I have posted previously about 4 months ago in (IIRC) GD, You are free to search but I don’t care to go into it here. It is my opinon.

People who opposed the war – for the benefit of the Iraqi people

Here’s the rub – what they wanted to do (basically) is to have the UN run around Iraq and search for nukes. This does nothing for the Iraqi people, they had no plan to help the Iraqis AFAIK.

'Nuther question for the OP -

You agree with my points? great -

Please reconcile for me the following:
“You fuckers were against it, now you can’t play” (dilstillate of the OP’s point 3)
with
“We will need to band together as a world community in order to ensure the successful rebuilding of Iraq” (my point)

The people who opposed the war can donate time and money, they can carry fresh water to the citizens of iraq, they should not be in the overall planning as they obviously have a fundamentally different view of the world and humanity they those who (and you are about to go ballistic again) freed the people of Iraq.

** Beelzebubba** you are mixing up your screwing

Screwing ‘A’
Screw the French, Russians and Germans, NO YOU CAN’T HAVE ANY INPUT AS TO The Rebuilding

Screwing ‘B’
Screw the congressmen and house members who opposed the war and no want to be incharge of the rebuilding.

OK, fine. How does this affect your stance on who rebuilds what?

The people who acted and who got the desired results.

And, am I the only one who sees a fundamental disconnect between these two statements of yours?

One was a thank you to the Millitary and the other is how war works. You had your say in our republic, your side is not in power, you will get another chance next election.

Ahh, the sweet ring of liberty, where might makes right, the majority makes all of the decisions, and you’re lucky if the victor allows you to shut up.

Interesting society you’d have there.

Yes I am very glad we live in a world that a free country is the lone superpower and had no plans to annex land, just to free people.

[wring]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
**And this is getting stupid, do you really expect us to replace it with a gov’t that hates us?
**

yea, it’s not like we ever helped support a demon like Saddam H…

[Zenham]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *

Low energy prices in general help everyone except for ‘big’ energy.

In relative terms though, the largest gains stand to be made by the highest users of petoleum (not just as fuel, remember)… which is most definitely not the poor. (Petro companiues, manufacturing, shipping, you name it).

I do not know enough on this one to comment, Have any sources you can point me to so I can inform myself?

Here’s the speech made by the Head of Market Analysis for OPEC, in April of last year to the EU, which delineates the desire of OPEC member nations to switch to trading in Euros, provided that the Euro proves stable (this being said 4 months after the Euro debut, so the jury was out about its stability):
http://www.opec.org/NewsInfo/Speeches/sp2002/spAraqueSpainApr14.htm

Here’s a CNN.com article outlining the UN okay for Iraq to shift the payments of its oil-for-food programs to the Euro, starting in November of 2000:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/30/iraq.un.euro.reut/

Here’s a long, but extremely detailed analysis of the situation, including over 20 solid references for additional materials (from the Independent Media Center):
http://richmond.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=2567&group=webcast

Here’s an article about the Iranian proposal to switch from the dollar to the Euro:
http://www.iranexpert.com/2002/economicsdriveiraneurooil23august.htm

Here’s an interpretation from a former Canadian diplomat (who is now an author in residence and professor at Berkeley). I include this because it has quotes from documented Bush cabinet meetings regarding Iraq’s influence on world oil:
http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

…one quote from this article refers to a news item on an oil and gas industry website, from October of last year:

30-10-02 The US State Department has pushed back its planned meeting with Iraqi opposition leaders on exploiting Iraq’s oil and gas reserves after a US military offensive removes Saddam Hussein from power to early December. According to a source at the State Department, all the desired participants are not yet available.

Even extreme right-wing Conservative commentators are writing about this; here are two examples:

Why Should You Be Exchanging $50 Bills for Other Currencies? – 888 Web Today

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=5586

Is this enough material for you, to let you know I’m not just talking out of my ass?

I was talking about the economy, not just the stock market which softened as much as 2 years fromt he end of Clintons term in some areas.

Hrm. Not so, according to the government, but I like your willingness to assume this is true,

1960-2000 US GDP showing a consistent growth in the years 1992 to 2000 (look on page 5)… the years you mention show a 6 to 7 percent increase (compare that to an average 4 percent GDP increase over the Reagan/Bush Sr. years):

income.pdf

Or how about this… the GDP rose 3.8 points in 2000, and rose a total of .3 points in 2001 (Bush Jr.'s first year). In fact, in the first three quarters of 2001, before September 11, the GDP actually decreased.
http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/newsrel/gdp402f.htm

But even with your example the S.M. decline happened under Clinton’s economic policy, which stretched for several quarters into Bushes term.

We’re talking about 2-1/2 years of decline, not a few quarters. Plus, the major shifts in the market have come about due to changes in policy set forth by the Bush presidency; the Stock Market is much more affected by the announcement of policy changes than it is by the long term effectws (ask any investor). The market has adjusted for changes within days of their announcement, not years after they’re made. You’re thinking about banking debt income, not economic markets (and yes, I have studied Banking and Finance; I’ve got a business degree).

Again taken out of context, you would love me to link the 2 wouldn’t you. Bin Laden is either dead, incapable of attacking and/or we are hunting him.

Okay, if you deny that you were making a link between Sept. 11 and Iraq, let’s let Bush do it FOR you (as reported last week by Reuters, reprint here courtesy of, again, the Independent Media Center):

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush said on Saturday the Iraq war has made clear that “free nations will not sit and wait” while enemies plot another Sept. 11-style attack.
…
“Free nations will not sit and wait, leaving enemies to plot another September 11 – this time perhaps, with chemical, biological or nuclear terror,” Bush said.

“We’ll remove weapons of mass destruction from the hands of mass murderers. And by defending our own security, we are ridding the people of Iraq of one of the cruelest regimes on Earth.”

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=308895

How many Iraqi civilians have dies in Sadam’s torture chambers, thousands?

This is such a bullshit heartstrings argument. Since when have you cared about the Iraqi people? How long? I’ve been aware of their plight for my entire life. It’s been told to me, firsthand, by my relatives who have escaped.

China has killed far more than Saddam ever has, in both numbers and percentiles, in their prisons. Their punishment has been the continued upholding of their “Most Favored Nation” trade status. Cambodia continues to be the scene of horrific violence. North Korea has admitted to having a Nuclear Weapons program, and has long-range missles capable of reaching the western United States. We’re not attacking or even pursuing any of these countries… and although it might only be coincidental, none of them have significant oil deposits.

There, you have your facts. I’ve backed up everything I’ve said, and you’ve yet to back up yours. I respectfully submit (again, with rewording) that you are a dick-waving, flag-wrapping jingo-happy yahoo, willing to rationalize the criminal actions of our government (bet you didn’t know unjustified acts of war are violations of international law, huh) because you buy into this patriotic cover story that you’ve been watching on Fox for months now.

Care to reevaluate?

[White_Lightning]

Come on people. 2 pages of this? You all should know better.

Incidentally, just in case nobody’s said it yet, welcome to the SDMB Vanilla Toast. Most excellent.

[Lissa]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
**I have heard many protest over the years for various subjects, Most in major metro areas, many that block traffic. I have never heard one time that someone dies because they were stuck in such traffic but common sense says it MUST happen just due the the number of people in metro areas. The only conclusion till I have more evidence is that it’s not reported. **

This is ridiculous. It’s like me claiming that I know George Bush MUST sacrifice goats in the Oval Office, but that it’s just not reported in the media.

As I said before, the anti-protest crowd would have a * field day * if there was ever one story about a person dying because a protest blocked the street. I’m sure there are folks out there searching earnestly for such a story. Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh would salivate over that kind of story. They would shout it from the rooftops.

“Common sense” tells me that since no report has ever been made, despite your claim of having heard it somewhere, it hasn’t happened. Just because a remote possibility that something could happen exists does not mean that it * has * happened.

First of all, I should think that an ambulance driver would know to avoid a protest area. Secondly, I can’t imagine any protestor, no matter how die-hard, would not allow an ambulance through. For crying out loud, these are not * evil * people. Making people late for work is one thing. Letting someone die in an ambulance is another.

[kanicbird]

In relative terms though, the largest gains stand to be made by the highest users of petoleum (not just as fuel, remember)… which is most definitely not the poor

True but as a percentage of their income the poor come out on top.

Thank you V. T. for those links, including the right wing ones to ballance out the rest ;), I have to spend some time on them.

White Lightning In short fuck you, I have been a member of this board since 99 and never was hinted at being a troll you dickhead. I post what I feel and beleive and don’t post a lot of PC crap. If you don’t like it fuck off!
Lissa Traffic backs up onto nearby streets, the protestors might not even know that there is an emergency vechical stuck in their traffic. I’m sure that most protestors would get out of the way to let them through if they knew.

Even if the ambulance driver knew which routes are jammed he still might have to take them.

I can’t see how you see this as a very remote possibility as I see it as an inevitability. I have worked at several hospitals in and around NYC (non-medical) and see the constant flow of ambulances throughout the day. It just has to happen.

For crying out loud, these are not evil people.

I was not saying that these protestors were evil, mainly misguided and irresponsible. I can’t beleive that all the protests that blocked traffic throughout the years on all topic from antiwar to abortion to race relationships never once blocked an ambulance or never once took a life. I’m sorry there is no way I can believe this, it must have happened at some time.

Again I draw the same conculsion, it happens.

I know you can’t find something that doesn’t exist and I can’t find something that is not reported. I really do believe that this happens. We will have to agree to disagree.

One thing I think you migh agree on, once these protestors back up traffic beyond their site it is possible that they might be blocking a ambulance - and they are taking that risk.

[The_Calculus_of_Logic]

*Originally posted by Vanilla Toast *
**
But FUCK YOU, kanicbird, and your narrowminded, imperialistic, flag-wrapping dick-waving two-bit self, for thinking this war had ANYTHING to do with rightgeousness, or anything ELSE other than 1. oil 2. money 3. a distraction

We have as much right to militarily overthrow Saddam and occupy Baghdad as Canada has to take out Bush and park tanks on the White House lawn. And now I get to listen to snivelling little moralistic shits like yourself tell me about how my aunt and her daughter and kids are better off now. Yeah, if they’re fucking alive, you short-dicked neanderthal.

Go fuck yourself. **

First off, even if you believe the Iraqi minister of information’s exaggerations, about 1200 civilians have died in these 3 weeks of war. That is probably an exaggeration, but that is roughly 1/4 the number who would’ve died anyway in 3 weeks under the current government even without a war. I also don’t see you giving a shit that the Iraqi government was putting military hardware in schools & hospitals.

This is why we should’ve invaded North korea instead of Iraq. THe people there want our help. I’m sure in 2 weeks Iraqi people will be bombing us because we ‘pollute’ their culture. It seems many iraqis would rather live under a stalinist dictator with the same skin color and religion as them than have him pushed out by Anglo american foreigners. If that statement is wrong show me how.

[Lissa]

*Originally posted by kanicbird *
**Lissa, Traffic backs up onto nearby streets, the protestors might not even know that there is an emergency vechical stuck in their traffic. I’m sure that most protestors would get out of the way to let them through if they knew.

**

Are the protestors deaf-mute? They can’t pass a message through the crowd?

**Even if the ambulance driver knew which routes are jammed he still might have to take them.

**

In a large city, there is almost always more than one street that can be taken, and usually, several hospitals to chose from. If it’s a life-or-death scenario, I would hope the ambulance driver would be smart enough to go to another hospital.

**I can’t see how you see this as a very remote possibility as I see it as an inevitability. I have worked at several hospitals in and around NYC (non-medical) and see the constant flow of ambulances throughout the day. It just has to happen.

**

No, it doesn’t. As you just pointed out, there are several hospitals. Ambulances have radios. As soon as a protest blocks a stree, I’m sure they’re made aware of it.

**I was not saying that these protestors were evil, mainly misguided and irresponsible. I can’t beleive that all the protests that blocked traffic throughout the years on all topic from antiwar to abortion to race relationships never once blocked an ambulance or never once took a life. I’m sorry there is no way I can believe this, it must have happened at some time.

Again I draw the same conculsion, it happens.

I know you can’t find something that doesn’t exist and I can’t find something that is not reported. I really do believe that this happens. We will have to agree to disagree.

One thing I think you migh agree on, once these protestors back up traffic beyond their site it is possible that they might be blocking a ambulance - and they are taking that risk. **

Yes, I guess we will have to disagree. Generally, I like to have at least a little proof before I make a sweeping assumption, but that’s just me. “It must have happened,” isn’t good enough. By this logic, I can claim that police killed one of the protestors. With all of those cops with guns, it MUST have happened at some point.

Why is the media so mysteriously silent? Why have no grieving family members stepped forward to sue protest organizers? Why isn’t Rush Limbaugh blathering endlessly about it? Why have no police reports been filed? Why have no ambulence drivers spoken out?

Your assumption doesn’t hold water.

[Zenham]

*Originally posted by White Lightning *
**Incidentally, just in case nobody’s said it yet, welcome to the SDMB Vanilla Toast. Most excellent. **

Thank you, you’re indeed the first to welcome me. It’s wonderful being surrounded by so many bright people (regardless of any political views, I respect knowledge and conviction).

[Zenham]

*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic *
First off, even if you believe the Iraqi minister of information’s exaggerations, about 1200 civilians have died in these 3 weeks of war. That is probably an exaggeration, but that is roughly 1/4 the number who would’ve died anyway in 3 weeks under the current government even without a war.

I don’t think you understand my point here, Calc. I’m very, very glad Saddam is out of Iraq. I’m also very, very ashamed that it was done by my country, under the pretense of spreading liberty, when the direct reason this military campaign occurred was money.

I am ashamed of President Bush’s reasons for the war in Iraq, and horrified that around 200 U.S. citizens, 200 young soldiers, died for the sake of oil and money, and to benefit the most wealthy in this nation of ours.

I also don’t see you giving a shit that the Iraqi government was putting military hardware in schools & hospitals.

See the above. I do care. Shooting a lamed horse to put it out of its misery is a sad kindness; shooting a lamed horse to laugh at the surprised expression on its face as it dies is still repulsive.

This is why we should’ve invaded North korea instead of Iraq. The people there want our help.

Not true. The North Koreans believe Kim Jong Il is a ‘living god’ of sorts; there is no outside media in Korea (unlike there was in Iraq). The people of North Korea believe that all good things come from Kim Jong Il, and they freely say so (without lying to prevent reprisals). The common street belief is that the west would have them all enslaved if it weren’t for their Benevolent Leader.

I’m afraid Bush will try to take on North Korea; if he does, we’re in for one hell of a nasty war. Remember, they have an effective standing military, with over 35 years of military mass-production, an estimated one million soldiers, and an active nuclear program.

I’m sure in 2 weeks Iraqi people will be bombing us because we ‘pollute’ their culture. It seems many iraqis would rather live under a stalinist dictator with the same skin color and religion as them than have him pushed out by Anglo american foreigners.

Yeah, all those towelheads know how to do is make bombs, anyhow… just forget that all of civilization started in the Tigris-Euphrates delta, and that the first written laws came from the very capital city we now occupy. All those sand-monkeys know is violence and hatred.

Man, Is your mind really that narrow? If so, how do you keep the sides from scraping together?

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by Coldfire *
**I’ll add one.

4. Screw every simpleminded amoebe who fails to see the world in anything other than black or white, and screw the ones that only seem to be interested in debating international politics when shiny rockets are involved twice as hard.

C’mon everybody, agree with me, right fucking now. You’re either with me, or against me. **

If you’re in a kilt, I will offer to be ON you.

[ShaneVA]

I have just a few points to make, so here they are, in no particular order:

1. I’m tired of the anti-war crowd saying that those in favor of the current action are “pro-war,” or are “bloodthirsty warmongers.” That’s just as moronic and simplistic as me calling you a “Saddam supporter” if you’re not in agreement with the decision to go to war. I think Dennis Miller made a good analogy on his HBO special last night. He said those in favor of war like war just as those who are pro-choice like abortions. It’s a stupid assertion to make.

2. I honestly don’t believe oil had a big part to play in the decision to go to war. If it were really about oil, we would have just gone to the UN and asked for the sanctions on oil production to be removed. We would have said that sanctions were hurting the Iraqi people, and the UN would have backed the measure. The oil would have then flowed.

3. For me, this war has always been about liberation. While I’m certain Iraq has WMD (afterall, Resolution 1441 was passed based on the assertion that Iraq had such weapons–all 15 voting members agreed on that much), I’m not so sure Saddam would have been able to simply pass them off to terrorists. We would have traced it right back to him if he had done so. Just as I was in favor of our involvement in Bosnia, I am also in favor of our involvement in Iraq (go ahead and call me a warmonger now). :rolleyes: And please don’t even THINK about saying “Since when have you cared about the people in Iraq.” You have aboslutely no clue what I care about. There are many places in the world where we should do whatever we can to help oppressed populations. It is my prayer and hope that none of them will ever have to result in war, but I’m not aware of any tyranical dictators who have been removed peacefully.

4. Many in the ant-war crowd has stated that this war wouldn’t have been necessary if Bush I would have “finished the job” in 1991. This is a simple case of having your cake and eating it, too. Bush I was pressured by the UN to NOT topple Hussein’s regime. So, in this case, many of you are faulting Bush I for NOT going against the UN, while also faulting Bush II FOR going against the UN. That’s extremely hypocritical.

5. As for the argument that we helped out Hussein in the past, all I can say is: Yes, we have sometimes propped up dictators throughout the world. Does that mean we should not correct our mistakes? To those who say we armed Hussein: It is true that we gave him weapons in the past, but we have NOT done so since the sanctions were put in place. I cannot say the same is true for many of our “allies.” Russia and France had many dealings with Iraq, and as recently as one week before the war began. So you have to ask yourselves, why did these countries oppose the war? Surely they cannot claim the moral high ground.

6. I’m also having trouble understanding the people who are screaming “Why haven’t we found the WMD?!? I thought we were supposed to find weapons everywhere!?!?” How extremely simplistic. Many people wanted to give the UN inspectors another 6-12 months (as if 12 years wasn’t long enough), but then expect the military to have found caches of weapons in the past three weeks, while simultaneously fighting a war and dodging bullets, no less. If you could have waited another year for UN inspections, surely you can wait for our guys to take the time to dodge grenade attacks before searching for WMD, right? BTW: We HAVE found missiles tipped with nerve and sarin gas which were PREPARED TO FIRE. I’m sure we’ll find MANY more in time.

7. For the person who was saying that it was preposterous to believe that protestors were blocking emergency service vehicles, I can assure you that some protestors were indeed preventing emergency vehicles from getting to their destinations. The NY Post had an article last month in which a group of protestors in NY prevented a fire truck and an ambulence from getting to a fire, all the while shouting insults at the firemen and EMTs. I was going to post the article here (I had it saved in my favorites because I couldn’t believe it), but the link has expired.

8. In closing, I’d just like to request that those who are (were) against the war to refrain from calling me a simple-minded conservative warmonger, or anything like that. I’d like to have a rational discussion about this, if possible, and ad hominem attacks on either side of the fence do nothing to promote discussion. Thank you.

[Nanoda]

It seems a bit late to reply to MLS, but the thread’s still active, so what the hell.

1stly, note that the OP says (as I quoted last post), that he’s in favour of war after war until “the whole world is free”. Now, if the U.S. fights all other countries, they will have conquered them all. Thus, I am justified in snidely remarking that

I now heartily support your goal of having the US conquor all other countries

You are defending past US actions (mostly good), whilst I am decrying the OPs opinion (simpleminded and fucking stupid).

Furthurmore, I say specifically that those I detest are the “whole ream of fuckwits” who think that “not jumping up and down for war” equates to “hates everything in the US”. My coursework required that I take several logic classes; this does add up. If you are among the set “whole ream of fuckwits”, then I say conditionally “Fuck you if you think that”. Are you among said fuckwits? You don’t claim to be. Thus you find yourself outside the set of people I hate. Specifically outside the set of people I hate for having this opinion, I could always hate your for something completely different.

Summary: I believe OP to be a dink, and those who think like him to be dink-like. You aren’t the target of either of my replies, so please don’t get defensive.

[Lissa]

*Originally posted by ShaneVA *
**7. For the person who was saying that it was preposterous to believe that protestors were blocking emergency service vehicles, I can assure you that some protestors were indeed preventing emergency vehicles from getting to their destinations. The NY Post had an article last month in which a group of protestors in NY prevented a fire truck and an ambulence from getting to a fire, all the while shouting insults at the firemen and EMTs. I was going to post the article here (I had it saved in my favorites because I couldn’t believe it), but the link has expired.

**

I’d really like to see this. I did a Yahoo! search and found nothing of the kind.