You may have point there but I wasn’t arguing with that point since nobody else including any moderator has made it yet.
First someone said that it wasn’t a sexual thread. I showed that it was. Next someone said that it was a ‘serious’ sexual thread. I showed that it wasn’t.
A mod might or might not come in to clarify this point. As I understand it now, even though the joke would technically be directed at another poster, if the original poster started a thread to make jokes about their own breasts it would be OK for others to join in. But again I wasn’t arguing that it is necessarily OK to make a joke about someone’s breasts just because they did, I was arguing that the fact that they did shows it wasn’t a ‘serious sexual thread’ which is what the only mod ruling given so far in this thread indicated the problem was.
For the record, I don’t think you’ve shown that it was a sexual thread. The OP of the thread asked for feedback from other women on “your experience with bras, and when you leave them on and take them off.” Yes, before and during sex was used as one example of a time when she and other posters in the thread either leave it on or take it off. That, to me, doesn’t make it a “sexual” thread. The actual request for information from the OP was much broader than that. I’d be more inclined to put it under category #2 rather than #3, myself.
That being said, I don’t think the note I issued in the thread needed to get to that level of distinction. From my perspective, the problem was off-topic commentary that was increasingly posing the possibility of derailing the thread. My experience and the experience of other posters tells me that it’s the type of topic that can more easily be knocked off the rails than others, and my hope was to put a stop to that before it went any further that direction.
Fair enough and thank you for the clarification. I would argue that a) in that case if it was a non-sexual thread at least some of the comments made by women in the thread in my quotes upthread were overly sexualized and b) if it was indeed sexual, but a ‘serious’ sexual thread, then again some of the quotes I cited ran afoul of this, either way.
I don’t protest the mod note however, only some of the arguments presented in this thread (from non mods) about why it was justified. Your reason makes pretty darn good sense.
And since this is ATMB and I can junior mod a little here I would add that the most serious rules violation in that entire thread was not noted:
In a few lines this post all at once managed to contain junior modding, and three direct personal insults against other posters.
No, they did not. A light-toned remark about a real, experienced thing is not the same as a joke. Of the seven comments from women that you picked out upthread, none were jokes.
Since the rule gives no definition we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
By my interpretation the spirit of the rule means a serious sexual topic as in, for example, breast cancer or self image issues or advice about pregnancy, etc.
Your definition apparently means anything that is a real life discussion about anything, even if the participants are making lighthearted jokes about the subject matter themselves.
Whether or not one takes her bra off for sex is not exactly serious or frivolous. The nature of the thread would have be gleaned by interpreting the context of the posts within. And that context in this case was very lighthearted including tossing around sexual euphemisms for breasts that would very likely have earned a warning for any of the three who received mod notes for the comments they did make.
I think we’ll tie ourselves in knots trying to craft and enforce a perfectly gender-neutral rule for this sort of thing, because ultimately what the rule is trying to achieve is not a gender-neutral goal. It’s about reining in male behavior that annoys women. It doesn’t make sense with the genders flipped because men and women are not mirror images of each other. There’s an asymmetry to the human race.
I don’t want to live in a world where women can’t make sexual euphemisms about their breasts in a lighthearted discussion.
My only objection throughout this thread has been the desire of some to have what amounts to a double standard, which the original rule is carefully crafted to avoid, and some interpretations of what constitutes ‘sexual’ and ‘serious sexual’ threads with regard to the rule.
It’s all academic discussion anyway because it was only a mod note. And because this rule, however it’s interpreted, will never affect me since I wouldn’t make posts like that anyway even if there were no rule.
If we’re setting rules aside and just arguing personal opinions that have no impact on board moderation we can open a thread in IMHO, but in this thread we sort of have to consider the board rules to reach any conclusion.
I’ve been wanting to say that.
not one of those comments was a joke. All were straight-up answers to the question. Some used non-serious language to reply, but that hardly makes them jokes.
You are completely missing the point. Whether the discussion was serious or not, none of those statements was a joke in any way.
I don’t believe they would have been problematic coming from a guy.
If we were talking about buying a new car, and I said, “I haven’t shopped seriously yet, because i hope to get another year or two out of my rust-bucket, but I’ve had my eye on the…”
Would you think that was a joke? I wouldn’t. Pretty much the same thing.
Wow, a thread created out of sheer irritation over an admittedly inconsequential mod post goes to 2 pages. Who’da thunk?
Just for the record, if the quoted text had been in the mod note then it wouldn’t have bothered me at all. It was the “Enough already…stay out or get a warning” phrasing that got me.
I think it’s you who may be missing my point. When I used the term “booby joke” it was just meant to describe any inappropriate sexual comment made in a lighthearted manner in a thread in which it isn’t welcome. You weren’t around for the big uproar on the boards a few years ago when this rule was crafted but that time has since become known, at least to many, as “boobygate” and any infringement of that rule a “booby joke”.
So, when I say “The participants were making booby jokes themselves in the thread so it obviously wasn’t a ‘serious’ sexual topic”, there’s a history and context to that phrasing that you may not be aware of.
The entire point isn’t whether they were jokes or just a way of speaking, they illustrate that it wasn’t a “serious” sexual topic which by my definition as already written above might include topics like breast cancer, body image, pregnancy, etc.
You and a couple of other posters in this thread seem unable to grok that distinction and are focusing in on an irrelevant point.
I would think it was a lighthearted comment and so if a rule existed where we couldn’t make jokes in “serious” car threads it would not apply to that thread.
Crazyhorse, I think you are wrong. That thread is exactly the kind of thread for which the rule was created. It was a thread for women to discuss their bodies and clothing experiences. It was not a thread for making leering comments about women’s bodies.
The tone of the thread might have been lighthearted, that doesn’t make it a nonserious thread.
A male commenting “Hey, I like boobies, they’re fun to play with, and I would be really disappointed if my girlfriend kept her bra on” would be completely appropriate. But that is distinctly different than someone saying “Hey ladies, I’ll play with your boobies!”
The comments moderated were much closer to the second and were heading in that territory - the leering at women’s bodies rather than discussing the OP, which was about experiences wearing and not wearing bras.
Thanks, although the mod who made the ruling has already explained it and I have already thanked them and noted that it was a good reason.
The rest is all academic. I disagree with the idea that any thread that includes real life discussion about something is a serious thread in regards to the definitions for the sexual jokes rule. You and others disagree. That’s fine. The rule against hijack/derailing a thread is much clearer and easier to enforce.
It’s probably a mistake on my part, but I found the characterization of those posts as “jokes” much more offensive than anything in the original thread, so I’m going to keep beating this horse…
No, I wasn’t here for boobygate, and I only read the first several posts on the two (extremely long) threads linked at the top of this thread. But I think that some combination of rules 2&3 apply, depending on how sexual you think the topic was.
The discussion was perfectly serious, even if many participants used lighthearted language. Hell, look at Maggie the Oceolot’s (sorry if I got the name wrong) thread about dying of cancer. I can’t think of a more serious topic than that, but there’s some light-hearted language in it. “How do your clothes fit” isn’t the most important topic in the world, but it’s not a joke topic, either. And it is one that can drift into sensitive territory like body image.
None of the comments you highlighted was a joke. All were first-person descriptions of actual things directly relevant to the conversation. Referring to them as jokes makes me feel that you weren’t reading them as they were intended, but rather as a source of titillation. That may be unfair of me, but it’s why I am typing this.
Moderation is an art, not a science. The risk of derailment was a risk of getting into more obviously offensive “look at the boobies!” territory. I personally don’t think the comments went very far in that direction (except the joke about cup sizes) but I’m pretty sure that was one of the considerations in the mod’s mind. And I think it’s why a lot of women in this thread thanked him (her?) for it.
All your points are well taken but we’re talking past each other because we’re still talking about two different uses of ‘serious’ (or ‘joke’, or ‘lighthearted’… I’m not sure anymore.)
Initially, back in the pre boobygate era, in a thread about say breast cancer screening, some idiot might chime in with something like “breasts? Pics or it didn’t happen. har har”. Or maybe a thread about a photograph out there of some horribly disfigured person and someone might chime in “I’d hit that! har har” and so on.
IMHO, none of the comments in this particular thread rose to that level because they weren’t that grossly inappropriate for the subject matter and ‘mood’ of the thread. The cup size joke was in bad taste and inappropriate although not as horribly so as a few of the responses that it got including one that broke like 4 board rules and wasn’t modded.
This is an adult board and sexually-themed humor is a part of the culture. I would wager 99% of the women on the board would not want a strict rule “no sexual/flirtatious/off color” posts, ever. At the same time it shouldn’t be impossible for women to have a thread about, say bra sizing, without getting tons of off-color comments about breasts from the horndog brigade.
The two lengthy threads you scanned are only a tiny fraction of the drama that ensued back then, and finally after much time and thought, TPTB came up with the rule as we know it.
Like all rules here it is not carved in stone. Its interpretation is left to moderators to make on a case by case basis. It could be argued that a particularly funny and tasteful sexual joke might be permissible in the very same thread where a crude and stupid one might not be.
There is a contingent of ultra literalists on this subject who will report posts that really don’t need to be just because they may break the letter of the rule even if not its intended spirit.
It is unfair of you, or at least an incorrect assumption about my interest in it. I didn’t even know the thread existed until this ATMB thread and I didn’t get involved in this thread until someone claimed the thread wasn’t sexual.
For the purposes of this thread I have said about 5 times already, “first-person descriptions of actual things directly relevant to the conversation” isn’t how I define “serious” with regard to the rule. And “jokes” about one’s own boobs was not meant like “So a priest a rabbi and a lady with boobz walk into a bar…” type jokes. As it applies to the rule I meant discussing these first-person descriptions of actual things with a lighthearted, non-serious, context and tone.
The problem I have is that some threads may be those in which it is clearly inappropriate* to joke in like “I just found out I have AIDS” or some jokes are clearly inappropriate* or some joke topics have a blanket prohibition (like paper towel tubes). But in a thread like this, it is hard to distinguish between an inappropriate joke and an offensive one. Is there a guideline like “If one poster is offended - it’s offensive.” or is it like pornography - you know an offensive joke when you see it even if you can’t define it. And TBH the warning seemed more like “Thou shalt not joke in this thread at all.”
Suppose I posted “I find it titillating that a group of women can have an intellectual discussion of bras on this website.” Am I warned or not?
