Kiffa, why don’t you scroll to the top post on Page 2 of this thread again. It’s a direct quote from Florida’s relevant election law, section 102.111.
It says the direct opposite of your above assertion.
Whoa, you guys need a break. Please read my first posting with a bit more closer attention.
I said exactly what you both have said: the FL SecState interpreted the FL election statutes in a very tight conservative way. She COULD have said ok, we will except the confirmed and certified ballot votes including absentee ballots as scheduled under the law. No, she said the Tuesday 7 Nov ballots had to be in earlier.
It is quite obvious that you, Scylla, do not understand the US constitution which spells out clearly that the states are responsible for elections of Federal posts. Actual running of the election is delegated down to the county and then precinct levels. The point I tried to make within this context is that Bush, who normally supports local initiatives, leap-frogged into the Federal arena by requesting Federal action on the counties and states. This is clearly a philosophical reversal.This leapfrogging to the Federal judicial system did not comply with the US constitution so the Federal judge threw the case out.
In the same vein, Karen Hughes talked about election standards, ie how elections should be run. She implied that there should be standards that apply to everyone. This clearly implicates a Federal role in running and administrating elections. Again, the Federal level telling the state and local levels what to do. Another philosophical reversal?
Janet Reno hasn’t gotten involved in this election mess; she can only get involved when it is clear that civil rights have been violated. The issue needs to be brought to her; she cannot go out and seek confirmation for the legal and political implications that would come tumbling down.
In terms of civil rights violations and the large number of ballots that have been ruled ineligible for counting; these have mostly occurred in precincts where Democrats have the majority and the action has seriously effected either elderly or African Americans. The biggest political issues here have been a] the strong reaction to Jeb Bush’s Florida One Initiative by Democrats, liberals and African Americans and b] the importance of a stable/reliable social security system and affordable pharmaceuticals for the elderly. [I live in Jacksonville Florida; I am no stranger to these issues, personally and professionally.] These are the two largest threats to Bush’s winning the Florida Electoral votes. Why are these the two groups that have been targeted with double or triple rates of outcast votes? I did not mention racism - you did. I was thinking more along the lines of political expediency overriding civic rights.
I really want to know the rational answers to these questions. I would greatly appreciate if you could quietly read the issues that I am raising, think about them without a kneejerk defensive attitude and respond without all the fireworks.
My conviction is that Bush’s actions are showing bald political expediency to obtain the presidential seat. Is this immoral? No. This is politics, however it is clummsy politics at best. There is little elegance or finesse. I’ll miss Clinton’s political capabilities which allowed him to waltz around Gingrich et al and relight the Democratic torch. I guess that should really light you up and make you go completely nuclear/ballistic… looking forward to your reply.
My understanding is that Palm Beach County is a Democratic bastion. Why would the Democrats that control the county sabotage their own base by creating a ‘confusing’ ballot that results in double voting and confusion?
As far as the high number of ‘outcast’ votes, perhaps these people simply did not pay sufficiently close attention when they were voting. In a past election disputes, the courts have ruled that the intelligence of the voter is presupposed when they enter the booth.
Simply put, if the ballot is not totally illegible or printed in Swahili, it’s a legal ballot, and if the voter screwed up, it’s the voters fault.
That PBC ballot was hardly illegible or printed in Swahili. My state uses the same style of ballot, and I had no problem figuring out how to use it. After seeing pictures of the actual ballot in question, I fail to see how any person who exercises a modicum of care could fail to punch the #5 to vote for Gore if he was their choice.
To sum it up, my feelings on the large number of disqualified ballots is this: If the voter did not exercise due diligence in casting their ballot, that is their own fault and no one else’s.
Perhaps the PBC voters need to actually read the ballot next time before punching any number.
Kiffa:
I responded specifically to each of your questions. Since you still seem to believe the SOS is somehow interpreting what is a crystal clear law, I take it you chose to ignore the facts I posted.
You’ll notice that the handcount was ordered illegally by the board, they didn’t have the athority to state (at least that’s how it stands at this minute.)
You admire Clinton’s dodging abilities. I think they suck. “Oral Sex isn’t sex.” “Didn’t inhale.” etc. I’m Glad Dubya’s taking the direct route.
You also seemed to ignore the chess match aspect I described. This is not an issues driven conflict, it’s pure manuevering.
If you have a specific question or need a clarification on one of my responses, let me know.
Does this not imply that in ALL elections, theres mistakes?
So how to correct them? Is it possible, or does it only matter this time becasue it is SO close?
Any remedies?
Seems to me this is why the issue is going to court. If this issue had been decided before, there would be precedent and it would be (almost) a moot point. However, the Republican FL SOS has decided to follow the one that benefits her boy. The Dems have decided to fight for the one that benefits theirs. Now it’s up to a state judge to decide and interpret, as it should be under the rule of law.
To make sure that he won. Also, it would appear very statesman-like to show that he’s willing to risk his apparent victory in order to establish that he DID win, fair and square.
But it IS too late. According to Florida law, any candidate can challenge the election, but they must do so within 72 hours of the closing of the polls. This law was in force on Election Day. If any candidate was not aware of this, it’s his fault and no one else’s; ignorance of the law is no excuse. And Bush has even less of a reason to be ignorant of Florida law, seeing that the governor is his own brother! (But maybe they get along like Cain and Abel; who knows?) Wouldn’t it be ironic if George lost Florida because of a law that Jeb signed!? BWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!!
(Please note that I am not claiming that Jeb hates George and is trying to make sure George lost. I’m just suggesting possibilities.)
Read about it here.
Sorry, you are in error. There is a map available at USA Today that clearly shows what method of voting each county uses. (After the page loads, scroll down about a quarter of the page and click on the link “Voting methods around the country.”) By that map, it’s clear that the most common method used in Texas, by number of counties, is optical scan. The second-most common method by number of counties, is paper ballot AND they are also the LEAST populous counties! They are not used by as many people as optical scan ballots. Punch-card ballots are used third; only one county uses lever machines (I think it’s Austin’s home county); and only one county, down by Brownsville in the southern tip, uses electronic voting.
But if the Texas hand-count law signed by George does not exempt punch-card ballots from hand-counts, he’s saying it’s okay to hand-count punch-cards in Texas (where he won) but it’s not okay in Florida (where he may lose).
If that isn’t hypocritical, then I don’t know the meaning of the word.
Yet the Gore team is trying to circumvent the 7-day deadline law that would end the count tonight at 5:00. Shouldn’t Gore get the same “too late, too bad for you” consideration? If Gore can ask to get the 7-day timeframe waived, why couldn’t Bush ask to get the 72-hour timeframe waived? Is it just that Bush hasn’t asked, or has it been asked and denied?
different considerations:
Time limit: you have 72 hours within which to request a recount.
Time limit: the counties must provide their counts to be certified.
In the first, it’s clear you have that amount of time to request the recount. The amount of time it takes to ** make** the request is not substantial.
In the second, IF a recount has been requested, depending on circumstances as we can see here, they ** may not** be able to ** complete** the task within that time frame.
It does seem odd that the state has a time limit for the counts to be certified that pretty much preclude a recount happening.
Sure. But as Millosarian pointed out up above, the law seems to conflict with itself. One statute says the count MUST be certified by 5PM today, the other says the deadline MAY be extended at the Secretary of State’s discretion. She chose not to.
He never asked.
This election process has shown a distinct variety of human error, legal maneuvering, intellectual game playing and political acumen. Isn’t a wonderful example of democracy in action? We might be on pins and needles while we hotly debate the righteousness of our side. While I hope that there is a speedy answer to our questions, I am enjoying the ride.
What else is possible? We could be dodging bullets and tanks while our advocates disappear in the night. We could be subjected to incredible announcements by the regime in power which are totally unbelievable to any one other than the party-colorblind. I’ve been there elsewhere in the world and I am really glad that we are here in the US while the legal and political maneuvers occur.
I have also seen this process as very illuminating about how the two top candidates will handle problems once in the White House. From my earlier posts, you may see that I am not really impressed by Bush’s inconsistent actions. But I am not in total dispare; the free marketers have long held that a stalemate in the Federal govt [can also be read as “lack of mandate”] will allow the markets to continue to grow.
Bush should have never filed that suit, big error. Not only do his attorneys now look foolish for trying to override the judicial system, but he looks like a hypocrite and lost the ability to take the ‘high’ road in this election of two of the worst candidates this country has ever seen. I mean, outside of a few supporters, it basically came down to politics as usual, vote for the Party because neither candidate was worth a damn.
That said, the SOS will probably lose in court today and the hand count will probably, if not on the first try then on the second or third, make Al Gore the victor. The reason that at least I am opposed to the Gore camp in this election is that they have already basically said, if this doesn’t work, we will do this, then this, then this, until we win. I hope the hand count reconfirms Bush so you can be enlightened as to the pervasiveness that Daley will go to in order to get ‘his’ guy in the White House.
However, Bush should not have protested the hand count, what he should have done is picked some heavy favorites of his own for a hand count to even out the standard discrepancies that will be found by the hand count.
I have a question. I understand that they say the elderly couldn’t see the ballot, which, having seen what the ballot looks like I can’t understand. If they couldn’t figure that the dot next to the arrow tip next to the Party name is the one they want, they need a new prescription for their glasses. Then came Rainbow Head Jesse Jackson with his travelling circus claiming that the ballot is somehow racist. To me, alleging that blacks are somehow less capable of reading a ballot than whites is extremely racist. My question is, what is the basis for this allegation? How is a ballot discriminatory to anyone? There aren’t any cultural questions on it. Please someone explain this to me, or is it just the pile of bunk that I think it is?
Hi wring,
My understanding of the statute is that it has several intentions.
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Prevent the scenario that we have right now where election results are unknown. The longer this goes on the more the losing side will be convinced that the election was stolen.
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Mimimize the time that ballots are subject to manual handling. While I doubt degradation is much of an issue today, tampering certainly is.
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The entire election process was written over two hundred years ago, prior to high speed transportation and communications. A strict time-line was built into the system to ensure that results were tabulated, electors selected, the EC vote conducted, and the House and Senate votes conducted when necessary.
Kiffa Said:
**
You mean like all those guys that knew too much about Whitewater?
appreciate, but understood all that anyhow. Just curious how a legislature does: 1. Let’s allow recounts to be requested. 2. Let’s also make sure we have insufficient time to allow a recount to actually occur before the numbers have to be certified.
Although, as has been pointed out, the deadline IS allowed to be waived in case it needs to be.
jab1 said:
quote:
Originally posted by Milossarian
Most of Texas uses a written-on ballot, making hand recounts more reasonable.
Sorry, you are in error. There is a map available at USA Today that clearly shows what method of voting each county uses. (After the page loads, scroll down about a quarter of the page and click on the link “Voting methods around the country.”) By that map, it’s clear that the most common method used in Texas, by number of counties, is optical scan. The second-most common method by number of counties, is paper ballot AND they are also the LEAST populous counties! They are not used by as many people as optical scan ballots. Punch-card ballots are used third; only one county uses lever machines (I think it’s Austin’s home county); and only one county, down by Brownsville in the southern tip, uses electronic voting.
[/quote]
Sorry, YOU are in error.
I just called the Texas Secretary of State’s office and talked to Melinda Nickless, the Assistant Director of Elections for the state of Texas. (I have a job that allows me to do wacky stuff like that and get away with it.)
According to Nickless, of Texas’ 256 counties:
- 14 use punch-card ballots
- 60 use optical scan ballots
- all the rest use marked-paper, hand-counted ballots
While it is true that the majority of the state’s population uses either the punch card or optical scan ballots, the vast majority of the state’s elections are conducted on marked-paper ballots. Which would make more sense to be hand-counted.
(I just called the assistant director of elections for the State of Texas to settle a dispute on the Straight Dope Message Board. How fun!)
There IS no conflict between the 7-day deadline and the allowance of a recount. The problem in this case is that the hand-count took so long to get started. If the hand-counts had all gotten underway within the 3-day deadline after the election, they’d have four days to complete them. At least in the case of Volusia and Broward, both could have finished in time. Dade probably couldn’t because of the size of the population.
That said, I think that if a hand-count is deemed legal, the 7-day waiting period should be extended. But if it is, I also believe that Bush should seek the right to have a hand-count in those areas where the deadline passed, since the same logic is used for both deadlines. I fail to see how you can uphold the deadline against Bush, while extending it for Gore.
An even better solution would be to simply hand-count the entire state. If that takes 4 weeks, then just set the deadline for 4 weeks, get both candidates to agreee to abide by the result, and get on with it. Also, I’d put a rider in there that if the absentee ballots give Bush a lead of more than 2-3,000 votes (unlikely), then call the whole thing off and award him the electors. A win by several thousand votes would put Bush in the same kind of lead that Gore had in Wisconsin, Iowa, New Mexico, and Oregon. Unless all of those states also re-count, they should just call it all off at that point.
Then I have to wonder where USA Today got the information they used to make that map I cited. Oh, well.
(Are you old enough to remember when Johnny Carson was on The Tonight Show? He’d relate a true story and McMahon would say it was EVERYTHING you’d ever want to know on the subject. And Carson would reply, “Wrong, _____ breath.” That’s where I got “ballot breath.”)