A debate about 9/11 Truthers and CT threads (in the Pit)

[Monty]

@kaylasdad99

That’s what THEY want you to think it stands for. I heard from my cousin’s manicurist’s drycleaner’s doorman’s kid brother (whose newspaper boy’s sister’s boyfriend’s mom cleans the offices at an accounting firm in a building owned by a family friend of the bin Laden family) that it actually stands for World Organization of Nullifying Juries on Councils for Truth.

Uh-oh!

:eek:

What’s that?

:eek:

They’re coming for me and

Yep. More proof that WONJCTs are just jackasses. Nothing’s happened to any of us for daring to discuss the issue.

[aldiboronti]

Double post

[aldiboronti]

@Doctor_Why_Bother

Make fun of them.

This is sage advice. Ridicule is what they deserve for their cockamamie theories and ridicule is what they should receive, in full measure. Engagement is pointless. If you link to videos, for instance, which effectively demolish their propositions do you honestly think that they will watch them? If you link to scientifically sound explanations of their ‘anomalies’ do you honestly think they will read them? Although to be fair do we watch or read the endless crap they link to? I certainly don’t.

No, there can be no meeting of minds here for the simple reason that a working mind only exists on one side of the debate.

[Monty]

The first thing, the very first thing, to remember is that the WONJCT cares less about the issue they’re spouting nonsense on than you do. They’re spouting said nonsense merely to piss people off. They’re basically the trolls of social discourse.

[drewtwo99]

Look I’m not saying that there’s no such thing as a conspiracy theorist, but… can you really prove that there is???

Maybe they are just sims, or bots programmed by malicious scientists who want to torture all the rational people?

Maybe they are scientists themselves doing a study on human tolerance to bullshit?

Maybe “CTs” have all the good evidence but are just really bad at presenting it and making logical arguments, and the official story is just a legitimate mistake?

I don’t blame you for not seeing it. And I’m not making any claims here. Just asking questions. Hopefully to get you to think. To…

Open your eyes sheeple and accept what I couldn’t have believed for the longest time. The only conspiracy theorist is the one in your MIND.

[Jackmannii]

@XT

They are, IMHO, some of the lowest, most fucked up and morally bankrupt people on the internet…and that’s really saying something.

They have plenty of competition for this “title” - including Kennedy assassination nutbags, chemtrails loonies, antifluoridation ninnies, antivax crazies, alt cancer cure nimrods and a slew of others who assure us that They are covering up all manner of crimes and cures. The entire genre is heavily into promoting FUD and hatred of government, professionals and minority ethnic groups. I have difficulty singling out any of them for special accolades. :dubious:

After calm refutations prove futile (as they virtually always do for these folks), derision is the best option if one is inclined to respond. About the only good thing that will come of it is minor amusement value, plus the benefit in some instances that at least some loon(s) will be so embarrassed by their online flaying that they’ll hesitate before spewing the next time.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

Antivaxxers. Not even close. Sorry, nobody else is causing quite so much stupid harm.

[Sarahfeena]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Antivaxxers. Not even close. Sorry, nobody else is causing quite so much stupid harm.

I’m guessing there’s a big overlap. Someone in the vax forum at mothering.com told me she could really open my eyes about WTC7. Uh huh.

[running_coach]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Antivaxxers. Not even close. Sorry, nobody else is causing quite so much stupid harm.

I think the cancer cure /supplement/alternative medicine types could give them some competition.

[Inner_Stickler]

@SiXSwordS

I have no idea how this could possibly implemented, or if it would make a major impact, but if there were a basic expectation that the OP be willing to maintain a meaningful presence in their own thread, it would make such threads more consequential for me.

It would require a whole lot of coding and is therefore never gonna happen but I would be very interested to see what would happen to a forum like Great Debates if only the OP’s posts bumped the thread.

[Deeg]

I have a member of my extended family who believes in pretty much every CT in existence (which is funny because her FB page loves to call people who don’t believe sheeple and she’s a prime example of a sheeple). She’s largely a non-entity and she doesn’t hurt other people but it’s ruining her life with fear. She won’t drink anything without first adding a few drops of some magic liquid that protects her from the contrails. It’s sad and fascinating at the same time.

[JohnT]

@running_coach

I think the cancer cure /supplement/alternative medicine types could give them some competition.

And holocaust deniers. Can’t forget those asswipes.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@running_coach

I think the cancer cure /supplement/alternative medicine types could give them some competition.

That might be true…

@JohnT

And holocaust deniers. Can’t forget those asswipes.

They’re assholes, but they’re not specifically harmful. They’re pretty much harmless at this point, other than causing some outrage.

[Great_Antibob]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

They’re assholes, but they’re not specifically harmful. They’re pretty much harmless at this point, other than causing some outrage.

There’s a bunch running Iran right now that aren’t exactly harmless.

[crypto]

@42fish

The Subcommittee based their conclusions on a police Dictabelt recording that apparently recorded the sounds of four gunshots. Unfortunately, since the Dictabelt was found just before the Subcommittee was going to wrap up their work, they didn’t make a very in depth investigation of it. If they had, they might have noticed that the four alleged gunshots occur after a dispatcher announcing that the motorcade is heading for Parkland – the hospital where they took Kennedy after he was shot. So, you’ve got the choices of (1) the conspirators were so determined to take Kennedy out they kept up a barrage of gunfire after he was no longer on the scene; (b) the Dictabelt recorded something other than gunshots.

Actually, I heard that the dicta-belt recording started to be studied more closely when a copy of the recording was placed in the centerfold of a mens magazine, (something much more low brow than Playboy level porn). Anyway, it was printed on some cheap vinyl/plastic, and some guy who bought the magazine listened to the recording with headphones on and started the process of breaking down the credibility of the dicta-belt recording.

I saw this on one of those History channel shows that discusses the Kennedy Assassination. Anyone else remember the plastic record?

@Dissonance

You are demonstrating a profound lack of understanding of the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. It wasn’t a CT, there was an actual attack on Aug 2nd, and there was no actual attack on Aug 4th. On Aug 4th the second ‘attack’ was fought between the Maddox and radar ghosts. If you read the wiki article you’ll note Senator Wayne Morse was alleging faulty records of the incident before LBJ had even finished drafting the resolution. McNamara, who is presumably now deservedly roasting in hell, was 32 years too late in his admission in The Fog of War. It was all printed in black and white on the front pages of the New York Times in 1971 and printed in book form as The Pentagon Papers.

I understand the incident. My point wasn’t that we hadn’t known about it until McNamara made his statement. As you point out, the pentagon Papers were released long before that. My point was that the administration and govt. of the US used a phony attack to draft a resolution that drove us deeper into the war. If anyone had doubted the GoT at the time, they would have been denounced as CT’s, that’s all. Sorry if my point wasn’t clear.

I was just trying to point out that sometimes the nutters get one right. It is hard though, especially now, for anyone to take these things very serious today because it seems everything gets labeled by someone as a government conspiracy.

[Voyager]

@silenus

Since we as a group are incapable of ignoring them completely, I’m for isolating them where they can’t litter the rest of the board. CT threads should immediately be sent into the limbo that is The Barn House, from which bourn they shall never be seen again.

Excellent idea. Anyone who has hung around Barns knows that they are often associated with a big pile of manure.

But I’ve got an idea. Announce in the rules and on a sticky that anyone posting CT OPs has two days to respond to the responses - or else the thread is locked and they get banned for trolling. People who post crap and defend it are idiots, but they are more or less honest idiots, at least.

[XT]

@Voyager

Excellent idea. Anyone who has hung around Barns knows that they are often associated with a big pile of manure.

But I’ve got an idea. Announce in the rules and on a sticky that anyone posting CT OPs has two days to respond to the responses - or else the thread is locked and they get banned for trolling. People who post crap and defend it are idiots, but they are more or less honest idiots, at least.

That’s an excellent idea! I wonder if the Mods would go for it?

[Dissonance]

@Stink Fish Pot

I understand the incident. My point wasn’t that we hadn’t known about it until McNamara made his statement. As you point out, the pentagon Papers were released long before that. My point was that the administration and govt. of the US used a phony attack to draft a resolution that drove us deeper into the war. If anyone had doubted the GoT at the time, they would have been denounced as CT’s, that’s all. Sorry if my point wasn’t clear.

You claim to understand the incident, but continue to make it clear that you don’t. There was no phony attack. There was a real attack on Aug 2nd. On Aug 4th the Maddox believed it was under attack a second time but it was in fact only firing at radar ghosts, not actual attacking North Vietnamese PT boats. People did doubt if the second attack had actually occurred at the time. They were not denounced as CTs. Again, Senator Wayne Morse was publicly doing so before the draft resolution of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was even written.

[Deeg]

Can I just say that I love the name “dictabelt”? I gotta get me one of those!

[crypto]

@Dissonance

You claim to understand the incident, but continue to make it clear that you don’t. There was no phony attack. There was a real attack on Aug 2nd. On Aug 4th the Maddox believed it was under attack a second time but it was in fact only firing at radar ghosts, not actual attacking North Vietnamese PT boats. People did doubt if the second attack had actually occurred at the time. They were not denounced as CTs. Again, Senator Wayne Morse was publicly doing so before the draft resolution of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was even written.

Jesus, i linked to something that points out exactly what you said.

There was a real attack on the 2nd, but there was no attack on the 4th. We agree.

However, as I understand it, LBJ used the Aug 4th “incident” (which never occurred in reality. No NV navy attack occurred.) to push for the GoT resolution.

From the article.

On Aug 4,… During an evening and early morning of rough weather and heavy seas, the destroyers received radar, sonar, and radio signals that they believed signaled another attack by the North Vietnamese navy. For some four hours the ships fired on radar targets and maneuvered vigorously amid electronic and visual reports of enemies. Despite the Navy’s claim that two attacking torpedo boats had been sunk, there was no wreckage, bodies of dead North Vietnamese sailors, or other physical evidence present at the scene of the alleged engagement.

.

(Bolding mine). The US Navy claimed 2 attacking boats were sunk, but that didn’t occur, and no proof of it occurred.

Is that how you read that?

At 01:27 Washington time, Herrick sent a cable in which he acknowledged the attack may not have happened and that there may actually have been no Vietnamese craft in the area: “Review of action makes many reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather effects on radar and overeager sonarmen may have accounted for many reports. No actual visual sightings by Maddox. Suggest complete evaluation before any further action taken”

.

Whoops! Sorry everyone! I may have shot a shitload of ordinance over shadows.

One hour later, Herrick sent another cable, stating, “Entire action leaves many doubts except for apparent ambush at beginning. Suggest thorough reconnaissance in daylight by aircraft.” In response to requests for confirmation, at around 16:00 Washington time, Herrick cabled, "Details of action present a confusing picture although certain that the original ambush was bona fide."

Still sticking by the ambush story, but now saying their may have been no NV craft in the area.

At 18:00 Washington time (05:00 in the Gulf of Tonkin), Herrick cabled yet again, this time stating, "the first boat to close the Maddox probably launched a torpedo at the Maddox which was heard but not seen. All subsequent Maddox torpedo reports are doubtful in that it is suspected that sonarman was hearing the ship’s own propeller beat"

So, the captain of the Maddox starts to back off of the story, but he still claims the Maddox was probably ambushed on Aug 4th… He is basically working to cover his ass.

**Within thirty minutes of the 4 August incident, President Johnson had decided on retaliatory attacks. **
So, a phony incident was used to increase US involvement in the Vietnam War. No one who questioned the official reports was taken seriously, at least from my POV. If they were, the resolution wouldn’t have passed, and more questions would have been asked.

Today, the GoT Resolution wouldn’t even be required. LBJ would have been able to order the strikes without even asking for congressional approval.
I’m not sure why you keep saying there was “no phony attack”. A phony attack by definition didn’t occur. But the report of an attack that didn’t happen was the impetus for LBJ going to congress for the GoT resolution.

If you have a different version of this, fine. i wasn’t alive then. But this is how I understand history to have unfolded.