A few question for Omnivores . . .

Great Debates
1

Not trying to start a fight, I’m just genuinely curious.

What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products?

Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet?

In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives?

Again, just curious. Thanks.

2

Gee, Dalmuti, not spoiling for a fight or nuthin are ye?

I don’t give a fat damn. The animals have no more right to live than any human and no more right to live than a tomato plant. Life consumes. We consume living things.

In any event, I do not view animals as moral agents(it is, if nothing else, against my religion) and thus, they have few if any rights I am morally bound to respect.

And this question has been asked before.

3

Mostly “mmm… tasty”. Unless it’s bad. In which case, it’ll be something along the lines of “yeccch”.

Plants are living creatures too, friend. Animals (like us) eat them. And then other animals eat them. Then we eat those animals. Then, if we’re really unlucky, another animal eats us.

Well, I think that people would probably feel a lot more comfortable about the whole thing (if it makes them uncomfortable) if they could do the whole SFnal “vat-grown meat” thing. I’m for it: steak could go for a penny a pound, and I’d be all over that even if it were an odd off-green colour as long as it tasted right. :smiley:

Still, what particular ethical and moral system are you referring to? Most people probably subscribe to a mixture of utilitarian and rights-based ethics, neither of which is necessarily troubled by eating animals. Animals, not being sentient, do not have the rights that accompany that same sentience, and I’d definitely argue that being able to eat is a pretty compelling utilitarian good. If we discover that some animal is sentient, then we’d no doubt stop eating it.

One other thing: considering how poorly we tend to treat our fellow human beings, and considering that we know perfectly well how sentient they are (although freerepublic.com makes me wonder sometimes…) shouldn’t we work on aiding those beings whose sentience and capacity for feeling pain are utterly not in doubt?

Then again, I do believe (and I think most others do) that one shouldn’t harm an animal needlessly. We do need to eat, we’re an omnivorous animal and have been for aeons, but random cruelty is unconscionable.

(Yeah, that might be contradictory. I am large, I contain multitudes)

4

There’s that old saying – “let me decide what the question is and I’ll show you the answer”!

I justify this for the exact reason that I am biologically an omnivore, and I don’t have to explain myself any more than a grizzly bear does.

5

**mmmm, good T-bone.

No need whatsoever to justify it. Does the wolf feel guilty after the deer kill? People are animals. Our natural diet is omnivorous (we have both molars and canines and no problems digesting meat or vegetables) - same as most bears and many primates. It is the humans that are vegetarians that have an “unnatural” diet. It takes effort, thought, and modern agricultural practices in order to substitute for the iron and protein which would normally be gained through eating meat. Pre-history humans sure weren’t vegetarians. Nature designed us to be omnivorous.

Animals are not detached from my ethics and morals, just weighed differently. Which do you value more, an ant or a dog? I bet you said the dog, even though the ant is also an animal. Which do you value more, a dog or your mom? As for me, I would kill an ant without a second thought, but I won’t even kick a dog. I would, however, kill and cook that dog if it would save my mother’s life. We weigh the moral repurcussions species to species, with our own being the most important.

This is a very natural thing for any animal to do. The pack protects its own. I don’t feel guilty for viewing things this way - just as the lion does not feel guilty about it’s kill. Vegetarianism is an alternative of course, but it just seems unnecesary - even a little unnatural.

Your welcome

6

Not trying to start a fight, I’m just genuinely curious. OK, I won’t fight.

What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products? Sometimes “Yum”, but more often, “crap, I’ve got to finish this project”, “my back is killing me”, “how’re the Twins doing in the standings”, “do you want to go to the opera this month, honey?”, or “how can I manage to afford this motorcycle I want”.

Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet? Well, it’s justified by the fact that the animal would never have existed at all except for the “sole reason of satisfying [my] hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet”. You presume that never existing is better for an animal than existing for a short period and dying. Is death so bad? It’s what happens to animals. It seems quite “natural” on the face of it.

In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives? I’m quite conscious of animals. I grew up with cousins and friends who farmed. I’ve worked on a farm. I buy my meat from a local farmer who I know (and whose farm I know). I hunt. Certainly no detachment at all from animals. Do they affect my day-to-day ethics? Like “should I lie on my resume”? Nope. Guilt? Nope. Other alternatives? Sure, but I see no compelling case to choose them.

Again, just curious. Thanks. You’re welcome.

kg m²/s²

7

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by the_great_dalmuti *
** What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products?*

Usually, something along the lines of, “I wish I would’ve grilled some onions to go with this.” But generally, I like meat, so I can eat it with onions or without.

**Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet? **
I have to justify it? I’ve been doing it for my entire life without justifying it. If eating meat is the worst thing I ever do in my life, God should love me just fine.
In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives?
In all seriousness, yes–animals are pretty much detached from my everyday ethics, etc. I don’t really consider the ethics of eating meat, in part because I’ve already considered it and made my decisions about what is okay for me, ethically and morally.
Of course there are alternatives. I choose my lifestyle just like any good vegetarian does, and I make decisions that, because they coincide with my moral system, don’t cause any guilt.

FWIW, I don’t kill anything else. :slight_smile: Bugs, wasps, snakes, creepycrawlies (okay, except roaches) are all safe with me. It’s a contradiction, but there it is.
And, IF I had to kill my own meat, I suppose I’d go hungry. Or plant some corn. But I’d still be glad to visit with folks who served steak.

hth
k

8

I disagree that eating meat is “good” by utilitarian standards. Taking even the slightest gander at the data collected, we can see that the meat industry has terrbile, horrendous, and extremely obvious negative environmental repercussions. So I don’t think that “greatest good for the greatest number” necessarily works in this situation. Especially when one considers the mount of food, grain, and energy that is required to produce a pound of beef, compared to what it takes to produce a pound of vegetables. Also, the beef and chicken industry is notorious for polluting the water, as well as drastically draining our fresh water reserves. This hardly seems to be the greatest good for the greatest number.

What is the definition of “sentient” that you’re using?

It is a shame that we treat other humans with as little regard as we treat animals. Don’t you think thatthe problems are connected? It seems like the consumption of animals for food, especially in this day and age when it’s 100% unnecessary, is more of a disrespect for life, in general, rather than just a disrespect of animals.

Every burger you pass up for a veggie burger is one step closer we get to being able to feed the less fortunate. Every burger you pass up is saving precious fresh water, it’s giving the cattlemen less incentive to scorch another acre of rainforest, and it’s money not being given to an industry that thrives on cruelty.

smiling bandit - which religion does not allow for viewing animals as moral agents? Also, what about the greater harm being done by the slaughtering of these animals? Not the deaths in and of themselves, but the harmful effects of the industry on our environment? As a moral agent, do you not feel any responsibility to the Earth, or your fellow humans?

9

Usually I’m reading when I eat, so I think about the book.

I don’t really attempt to justify it…see the answer to the next question.

Animals aren’t, in general, detached from my basic day-to-day ethics and morals. I don’t like to see them mistreated, don’t kick dogs, don’t set fire to cats, and even try to capture and release insects that have gotten inside instead of squishing them. However, eating meat doesn’t really fit into my moral calculus at all.

For example, I had chicken last night. I know that a chicken was killed to make my meal. However, that’s why that chicken was bred in the first place. That’s why domesticated chickens exist. I’m not really sad that the chicken was killed, even. It was just a chicken.

10

[troy mcclure]
don’t kid yourself jimmy. if a cow had the oppurtunity he’d eat you and everyone that you care about!
[/troy mcclure

11

Mighty Maximino -

So you feel that you have no more moral responsibility to this world than that of a hungry bear?

Also, I would have to say that a bear wouldn’t pollute its own home to the point where it would have adverse health effects. Neither would any other species, I would assume, in its natural habitat.

Except, of course, for humans.

12

Wow. It’s funny, I just happened to see this thread as I sat down to a heaping plate of steaming soylent burgers.

13

OK, so you were looking for a fight, and not just curious?

14

Captain Amazing -

That’s what I don’t understand. That’s why I posted in the first place. I what to know why it is that you feel it’s “only a chicken.” How is that dichotomy (bad to kick dogs/good to eat cows) justified in your mind? Obviously, you’re a logical, reasonable person. Why does that inconsistency not sound alarms in your moral structure, not to mention your everyday common sense? I just don’t understand . . .

15

I hate to be glib… but doesn’t this thread belong in the BBQ pit?!? :smiley:

16

Newton meter -

Nope. No fights. I’m just using the forum to try and get a glance in other intelligent people’s minds. Trying to expand my horizons. (And hopefully, possible, expanding other people’s minds in the process.)

But when someone says:

“I justify this for the exact reason that I am biologically an omnivore, and I don’t have to explain myself any more than a grizzly bear does.”

Someone’s bound to get a little ornery.

17

What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products?
Mmmm… Yum. or Hey, the waitress is cute. or Man, I hope I didn’t just say the waitress was cute out loud.

Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet?
The same way I justify the fact that a living, breathing plant was killed for the sole reason of satisfying my hunger.

In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives?
No, no and no.
My ethics and morals are primarily self-centered – I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Since I can’t think of any animals with a moral system that stretches past eating what they can and sleeping when they’re not doing that, I see no particular reason to treat them in any better way.

18

Stankow -

Again, I refer to my earlier post. How do the environmental ramifications of eating meat fit into your self-centered moral structure?

Do you consider the planet, or at least our ecosystem, as something that has a moral system? Since the planet has no specific moral regards for your life, do you therefore feel as if you have no specific moral obligations to do your best to insure the vitality and safety of the planet?

Also, you said:

“The same way I justify the fact that a living, breathing plant was killed for the sole reason of satisfying my hunger.”

So, there would be no difference in the way you reacted to someone taking a chainsaw to a head of cauliflower, than you would a baby pig?

19

Stankow -

Again, I refer to my earlier post. How do the environmental ramifications of eating meat fit into your self-centered moral structure?

Do you consider the planet, or at least our ecosystem, as something that has a moral system? Since the planet has no specific moral regards for your life, do you therefore feel as if you have no specific moral obligations to do your best to insure the vitality and safety of the planet?

Also, you said:

“The same way I justify the fact that a living, breathing plant was killed for the sole reason of satisfying my hunger.”

So, there would be no difference in the way you reacted to someone taking a chainsaw to a head of cauliflower, than you would a baby pig?

20

I’ll try and give you straight answers here, but the question you ask are tricky because they’re coming from a totally different perspective.

**What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products? **
Nothing in particular. Honestly, I don’t think about where the meal came from or what it was in the weeks and months before it arrived on my plate. I just eat the food that’s in front of me. And if it’s something like chicken, I’ll be pleased because I like the taste of chicken and enjoy eating it.

**Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet? **
When I first came to understand what it really was that I was eating as a child, I was disturbed about it for a while. Basically I was given the “All things kill something else to survive” talk, and decided that, as uncomfortable as I was about animals dying to feed me, it was the natural way of things. And I don’t believe that ALL my nutritional needs could be satisfied by a plant diet, especially as there are so many vegetables and fruits that I cannot eat due to serious allergies. I love eating vegetables, don’t get me wrong, but I cannot have anything containing any tomato, chilli, orange, etc, etc or I become very sick.

**In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives? **
Yes, animals are detached from my basic day-to-day ethics and morals. I do not use the same standards in dealing with animals that I use in dealing with humans. I would never kill a human or cause a human to be killed; I would never kill an animal but have no qualms about causing an animal to be killed. The reasons are different - I believe killing a human is the worst thing you can do, but I wouldn’t kill an animal only because I’m squeemish. No, I don’t feel guilty. Yes, I do feel as if there are no other acceptable alternatives. I could swap to a vegetarian diet, but I don’t want to and am happy being an omnivore. I do try to include some vegetarian dishes in my menu where I can, but I also enjoy eating meat. I do not believe that I could satisfy all my dietry requirements on a vegetarian diet, keeping in mind my food allergies, my cooking skills and my interest level in developing more knowledge about a strictly vegetarian diet. I know very few vegetarians IRL to ask for advice. The two I’ve known for the longest have both been hospitalised due to severe nutrient deficiencies because they weren’t eating properly (I believe low iron levels, but I’m not sure), so I don’t trust any advice they may offer on healthy eating.

Is this the sort of thing you wanted?