A few questions about Mystic River (MAJOR spoilers)

[middleman]

I did a search and I was surprised not to find a thread on this film.

Saw it last night. Excellent flick.

However, I feel like I may have missed something in the scene between Penn and Laura Linney at the end of the film. It seems like she was hinting aaround at something without saying it. The ominous music led me (and my wife) to believe there was something more than just telling Penn that he could do what ever he needed to do to protect his kingdom. It would have made more sense to me if she had not known what Penn did to Robbins, but he told her at the beginning of the scene what he had done.

It just seemed like she was saying something without saying it. Did I miss anything there?

Also, did it seem like, in the scene where Robbins tells his wife the name of the molesters, that she didn’t even know about the incident? I couldn’t see this being plausible. I thought that maybe she was taken aback by the fact that he was bringing it up during a conversation about the death of Penn’s daughter. But a bit of dialogue seemed to imply that she didn’t even know at all.

Finally, the mute kid. Was HE the one on the phone in the 911 call or was it his buddy? I figure the buddy (as a kid who DOESN’T talk much would probably not speak that clear), but I was confused by the older brother asking him to talk. Why would he do that? Coming off the scene where the cops were listening to the 911 call, it made me think that the mute kid talking was somehow key.

But why would the mute kid talking indicate to the brother, who hadn’t heard the tape, had anything to do with the death? I realized there were other reasons the brother new the mute did it, but why the fixation on speaking?

[Zebra]

I lliked the movie a lot and I was also ‘confused’ by what I call the Lady MacBeth bit at the end with Laura Liney.

A friend who read the book explained that the LL character really disliked Tim Robbins wife. Apparently the wife and the Penn character had a fling or something when he got out of jail. She is pretty cold to her throughout the film.
As far as the phone call goes I’m not sure. During the call the caller asks the someone a question. “They want to know our names, what should I say?” or something like that. So clearly there is another person present when the call is being placed. I didn’t hear the other person on the 911 tape. Now maybe I didn’t hear them because they were too far from the phone or maybe I didn’t hear him becasue he is a mute.

I think his disability to speak was part of the whole idea that what Penn’s character had done in the past was coming back to haunt him.

[TWDuke]

I thought Linney was just being the “good” wife, supporting her husband’s decisions no matter what and spurring him on to greater things, in contrast to the “bad” wife who betrayed her husband’s trust by revealing what she thought he had done. The music is supposed to cue us in to the fact that the “good” wife is actually saying bad things. Ooh, the irony. The “you faker, I know you can talk” business threw me, though.
Another question of my own:

1. Ignoring for a moment the utter lameness of the “I thought YOU listened to
   the 911 tape” plot device, did the kids call 911 before or after shooting the girl in the head? I realize they were just kids and this was their first murder and all, but this just seems like a phenomenally stupid thing to do. I can think of three reasons to call 911 after committing a crime. One, you know you’re going to be linked to it anyway and you’d rather look like an innocent bystander than a murderer (this wasn’t the case because the only thing that put the kids at the scene of the crime was the call itself). Two, you regret what you did and want are trying to make things right (but they beat her with a hockey stick and shot her in the head). Three, you want to turn yourself in (obviously not the case, since they refused to give their names and fled the scene).

2. Why try to kill someone with a hockey stick when you’ve got a loaded gun and aren’t afraid to use it?

3. Were these just the stupidest cops in the world? Besides the 911 thing, if the car was stolen, the owner wasn’t responsible for what was in the trunk. It takes the criminal mastermind played by Tim Robbins a couple of seconds to come up with that, completely blindsiding our heroes.

4. What was up with the MGH character telling a mad-with-grief criminal that her husband viciously murdered his daughter, then being distraught and confused when her husband turns up missing? What was she expecting to happen?

5. Why is she so quick to think her husband’s the murderer? Does he have a history of random killings? Was it such a big deal to her that the “mugger” wasn’t in the newspaper, like he couldn’t have survived and declined to go to a hospital, just like her own husband did?

6. How hard would it have been to come up with a better story like, say, “I killed a child molester and dumped his body in the river?”

7. Was the victim’s boyfriend’s brother’s friend some sort of murdering psycho kid with no motivation? Isn’t revealing the victim’s boyfriend’s brother’s friend to be some sort of murdering psycho kid at the end of the movie kind of cheating?

8. Why did the kids swap hair color when they grew up?

9. What, besides the need for some sort of uplifting ending, caused lonely cop and crazy wife to start talking at the end?

10. Am I the only one who thought the script was crap?

[middleman]

@Zebra

A friend who read the book explained that the LL character really disliked Tim Robbins wife. Apparently the wife and the Penn character had a fling or something when he got out of jail. She is pretty cold to her throughout the film.

Interesting. Linney and Harden’s characters were cousins.

As far as the phone call goes I’m not sure. During the call the caller asks the someone a question. “They want to know our names, what should I say?” or something like that. So clearly there is another person present when the call is being placed. I didn’t hear the other person on the 911 tape. Now maybe I didn’t hear them because they were too far from the phone or maybe I didn’t hear him becasue he is a mute.

I gathered the same. I also thought the kid said “our” (Boston accents are tough for me to decipher!). But the cops realized they said “they want to know her name”. That is how they realized the 911 callers had to have been involved. People finding the abandoned car couldn’t have known it was a girl as her body was in the bear cage.

They then deduced that the Just Ray Harris connection was the right path, but just the wrong brother.

If I had to guess, I’d say it was the friend talking. I am still unsure why the innocent brother wanted the “mute” to talk and what significance it had.

I think his disability to speak was part of the whole idea that what Penn’s character had done in the past was coming back to haunt him.

That is a good thought. His never knowing his father, who Penn offed, led to his being mute.

But I am still confused because the brother doesn’t believe he is really mute…

[TWDuke]

Heh, I guess that was more than one question.

[BobT]

@TWDuke

Another question of my own:

1. Ignoring for a moment the utter lameness of the “I thought YOU listened to
   the 911 tape” plot device, did the kids call 911 before or after shooting the girl in the head? I realize they were just kids and this was their first murder and all, but this just seems like a phenomenally stupid thing to do. I can think of three reasons to call 911 after committing a crime. One, you know you’re going to be linked to it anyway and you’d rather look like an innocent bystander than a murderer (this wasn’t the case because the only thing that put the kids at the scene of the crime was the call itself). Two, you regret what you did and want are trying to make things right (but they beat her with a hockey stick and shot her in the head). Three, you want to turn yourself in (obviously not the case, since they refused to give their names and fled the scene).

The perpetrators were young and stupid. That’s not a good combination. They also felt guilty. They didn’t set out to kill the woman, but they ended up doing so.

2. Why try to kill someone with a hockey stick when you’ve got a loaded gun and aren’t afraid to use it?

See the answer to #1

3. Were these just the stupidest cops in the world? Besides the 911 thing, if the car was stolen, the owner wasn’t responsible for what was in the trunk. It takes the criminal mastermind played by Tim Robbins a couple of seconds to come up with that, completely blindsiding our heroes.

Since when are cops the brightest people in the world. Whitey had an idea. It was a stupid one. He didn’t think the whole plan through.

4. What was up with the MGH character telling a mad-with-grief criminal that her husband viciously murdered his daughter, then being distraught and confused when her husband turns up missing? What was she expecting to happen?

The MGH character is not emotionally stable either.

5. Why is she so quick to think her husband’s the murderer? Does he have a history of random killings? Was it such a big deal to her that the “mugger” wasn’t in the newspaper, like he couldn’t have survived and declined to go to a hospital, just like her own husband did?

Husband comes back in the middle of the night covered in blood with a suspicious story. And then she realizes that there’s been a murder. She jumped to the conclusion that everybody else did.

6. How hard would it have been to come up with a better story like, say, “I killed a child molester and dumped his body in the river?”

Yeah, that’s a better story. Everybody will buy that one too.

7. Was the victim’s boyfriend’s brother’s friend some sort of murdering psycho kid with no motivation? Isn’t revealing the victim’s boyfriend’s brother’s friend to be some sort of murdering psycho kid at the end of the movie kind of cheating?

The real murderers gave me the creeps from when I first saw them. I figured they had to be the murderers as there was no other good reason for them to be in the story.

8. Why did the kids swap hair color when they grew up?

Casting decisions often affect our hair color.

9. What, besides the need for some sort of uplifting ending, caused lonely cop and crazy wife to start talking at the end?

Got me on that one.

10. Am I the only one who thought the script was crap?

Probably not the only one, but a small minority. I thought it was a very good story and quite involving.

[Eonwe]

TWDuke, I agree… I thought it was a very very very very poor script.

I felt like there was an accident in the cutting room, where they decided to cut certain sub-plots, but forgot to take out scenes that make no sense without the rest of it. Examples:

The scene with Penn and Linney at the end. Why does a character who doesn’t do much of anything the whole movie have a scene which hints at her being a sinister, power-crazy woman who supports and perhaps drives her husband to do bad stuff (like killing people, for instance) in the name of the ‘family’? What a heavy and unsupported thing to drop at the end of the film.

Kevin Bacon’s relationship with his wife is just ludicrous. We get a few scenes in the film where she calls him without talking, and then all of a sudden everything is ok, coincidentally at the end of the film, though nothing that happens during the rest of the movie has any bearing on that. We know nothing about their relationship, why she left him, or really why she came back. Why have this here at all?

Tim Robbins’ wife did nothing in the movie but whine, snivvel, and look lost and frightened. She acts confused all the time, and completely lost, and again, we don’t have any idea why. We know nothing about her except that she is shocked by everything that happens around her. I felt like she just cried and said, “what?” the whole time.

Finally, so Sean Penn’s character has hit men who work for him and such? Ok, so he’s a crime boss? I felt like he was some weird mix between one of the Corleones and Danny Zuco.

So, my verdict is that this movie, while retaining some good elements, had a piss-poor script and none of the characers’ motivations (or characters, for that matter) were fleshed out or explained at all.

[middleman]

I kept wanting Tim Robbins to offer to show Penn the body of the child molester. Nice corroborating evidence.

I think, on some level, he wanted to die though.

So, who think Kevin Bacon will arrest Penn on Robbins’ murder?

The finger gun and “come get me whenever you want to” expressions they exchanced were intentionally vague I feel.

I believe Penn is going away because Fishburne will push until he gets the info out of Bacon.

And as for the screw up by Fishburne regarding the car:

1. Cops do stupide things ALL THE TIME.
   and
2. Bacon said, right away, that it was stupid. So the film also recognized the stupidity.

[ftg]

Note: Blood can be tested to determine how “fresh” it is. No doubt the blood in the car was going to be tested for this, the cops knew that Robbins would make the “it was stolen” argument, but didn’t reveal that it probably wasn’t going to stand once the other test was in. (Not to mention DNA.) Cops frequently let on only a little of what they know during an interrogation, so that the perp makes up a story based on limited knowledge that will later prove to not hold up. This was just step one on the process. You hang the crook on their own words. This is a very old trick.

As to 9. Bacon reconciling with his wife. He admitted he had caused problems, etc. (Don’t remember the exact words.) That’s all she needed. The same thing was also used in “High Fidelity” when Cusack apologized to his girlfriend “for everything.” Well, at least it works in movies.

[grisham]

okay not to get into specifics because i did not get to see all the movie(fight with so) but the book which was written by dennis lehane should answer you questions. by the way it comes highly recommended

[middleman]

@ftg

Note: Blood can be tested to determine how “fresh” it is. No doubt the blood in the car was going to be tested for this, the cops knew that Robbins would make the “it was stolen” argument, but didn’t reveal that it probably wasn’t going to stand once the other test was in.

I thought of this as well. Still, the test is not evidence the jury can see, hear or otherwise experience. It takes a PhD or an MD to EXPLAIN that it was a week old as opposed to put in the car when it was stolen.

And that still allows the defense good opportunity to tear the evidence apart, confuse the jury or simply raise reasonable doubt.

[TWDuke]

@BobT

The perpetrators were young and stupid <snip> See the answer to #1 <snip> Whitey had an idea. It was a stupid one <snip> The MGH character is not emotionally stable either <snip>

Sorry, that’s too much stupidity in one script. Yes, people in real life make irrational decisions, but a drama that depends on on one irrational decision after another degenerates into farce. Tragedies hinge on poor choices, but they should make sense in terms of characters and situations without assuming that everyone is stupid or crazy. With those as crutches, you could justify just about any behavior and plotting and characterization become meaningless.

@BobT

Yeah, that’s a better story.

Yes, thank you. It would have been better, because it would have been essentially true, eliminating a lot of suspicious pauses, shifty eyes, and forgotten details. It also would have explained why no body turned up. The only thing that the made-up story did was to increase doubt about TR’s guilt, which was in fact it’s only purpose – a transparent plot device.

The real murderers gave me the creeps from when I first saw them. I figured they had to be the murderers as there was no other good reason for them to be in the story.

That makes it an even bigger cheat.

I thought it was a very good story and quite involving.

So did a lot of people, so many that I keep thinking there must be something to it. I still don’t see it, though.

His never knowing his father, who Penn offed, led to his being mute.

But I am still confused because the brother doesn’t believe he is really mute…

I bet there’s supposed to be some sort of meaningful parallel between the “mute” kid and the wife who won’t speak. Personally, I think they’re both afflicted with Arbitrarily Imposed Hysterical Muteness Syndrome.

@Eonwe

So, my verdict is that this movie, while retaining some good elements, had a piss-poor script and none of the characers’ motivations (or characters, for that matter) were fleshed out or explained at all.

Thank you, at least I’m not a minority of one. Your points are dead on regarding character motivations. Add in a couple of wildly improbably coincidences, and you’ve got a script with serious problems.

@watsonwil

2. Bacon said, right away, that it was stupid. So the film also recognized the stupidity.

@ftg

Blood can be tested to determine how “fresh” it is. No doubt the blood in the car was going to be tested for this, the cops knew that Robbins would make the “it was stolen” argument, but didn’t reveal that it probably wasn’t going to stand once the other test was in. (Not to mention DNA.)

Actually, he was worried at first that they’d get busted for searching the car without legitimate cause, and then was upset about the false report. He was still surprised when TR pointed out they’d just handed him an alibi, and he told his partner – out of the suspect’s hearing – that they’d just gotten their “asses” kicked so no, there was no master plan.

[jovan]

@watsonwil

I kept wanting Tim Robbins to offer to show Penn the body of the child molester. Nice corroborating evidence.

I really quite liked the film, but that’s one of the few things that bugged me. However, maybe he did want to die. He was definitely not in any stable state, emotionally and he was piss drunk.

However, I feel like I may have missed something in the scene between Penn and Laura Linney at the end of the film. It seems like she was hinting aaround at something without saying it. The ominous music led me (and my wife) to believe there was something more than just telling Penn that he could do what ever he needed to do to protect his kingdom.

The ominous music worked when you think of just how heavy a burden Penn’s character will have to bear. He just killed the wrong man.

I have a question of my own, though not related to the script: How believable were the Boston accents? Obviously not all these actors are from Boston.

[middleman]

@jovan

The ominous music worked when you think of just how heavy a burden Penn’s character will have to bear. He just killed the wrong man.

There is “dealing with a moral dilemma” music and there is “We’re about to reveal something sinister” music!

[TWDuke]

[QUOTE=jovan]
I really quite liked the film, but that’s one of the few things that bugged me. However, maybe he did want to die. He was definitely not in any stable state, emotionally and he was piss drunk…*.
He was begging for his life at that point, so whatever emotional conflict he may have been experiencing, I have to think he would have saved himself if he could.

I thought he had no corroborating evidence because he dumped the body in the river.

[jovan]

That doesn’t work because the cops found the body in the woods behind McGill’s. That’s how Penn finds out Robbins’ alibi was right.

[TWDuke]

Ah, apparently I forgot that detail around the same time I forgot how to edit quoted text. So there’s one more plot hole.

[obfusciatrist]

My thinking on why Robbins didn’t offer to take Penn to the body is:

Robbins tried to go down the road of explaining what really happened and Penn essentially said “if you continue down this road I’m killing you right now.” That threat followed with “just admit it and I’ll let you live. You’ll go to jail, but I’ll let you live” convinced him to just admit it and then he’d have time to lead the cops to the body and explain what happened (and then he’d go to jail for murdering the pedophile).

As for the Laura Linney speach at the end, I would say throughout the movie she hadn’t shown much interest in Katie. She never cried, when Katie didn’t show up for work she suggested that Katie was generally a fuck-up and when Penn defenced her, Linney said “you have two other daughters, remember that.”

To me, all this suggested that Linney didn’t like Katie, didn’t like sharing her family with the daughter of a previous marriage and wasn’t too sad to see her dead.

It isn’t explored in the movie, but I think Linney was fully aware of Penn’s past, the crime life of the Savage Brothers, and wouldn’t mind being the wife of a crime boss. Something better than the wife of a convenience store owner.

[middleman]

@obfusciatrist

(and then he’d go to jail for murdering the pedophile).

I’m not sure he’d go to jail. Didn’t the pedophile have a knife on the kid?

Didn’t the pedophile cut TR with the knife?

Sounds like a justifiable homicide. ESPECIALLY when you find a way to get in TR’s history into evidence.

No jury would convict on that!

(Though I agree with your theory as to why he stopped trying to convince him. Plus you don’t think rationally when you have a knife to your throat and the Savage Brothers are screaming at you!)