Hi you guys. I have some questions regarding colleges and ACT scores. My son, whose birthday is today by the way - he’s 17 - got his ACT scores last night and is kind of upset. I am unable to make him feel better because I basically don’t even UNDERSTAND the ACT test and what it’s implications are, so if any of you could help, it’d be appreciated.
First, is Northwestern University (Evanston) a State school? I do not think so - that’s where he had his scores sent - with the ROTC program, though, I don’t think it will be an option for him so it may be a moot point. His concern is that in the college planning section of his scores it gives the profile of enrolled 1st year students at this college - his score is one point below the average for the school (there’s is 29-33 - he got a 28). Does that automatically screw him? He is convinced there’s no way he could ever get admitted with being one point below - is that in fact true? I don’t have any way of knowing how “lenient” college admissions are if you’re one point off. Granted, as I said earlier, NW may not even be an option with ROTC, but it COULD be with a bunch of scholarships (which he should be able to get per his counselor) and grants, so it’d be nice to at least know what his chances could be. As I said, I know nothing about admissions and what all they look at BESIDES scores.
Second, as far as his belief that he didn’t do well, I think, based on his percentiles for the four areas as they broke them down he did fan-freakin-tastic but he thinks 28 isn’t good enough. What say you? He is 92% in our state, 93% in the country - it would seem to me that that’s pretty damn good. Any thoughts as to what I can say to him to make him feel better or at least put this in some perspective?
Third - he may want to take this over - and he’s not sure about the SAT’s - SHOULD he take the SAT’s? And do you all think this would be worth taking over?
I’m feeling like a really inadequate and frankly, bad, mom - I can’t make my baby feel better.
Warning: I am not an expert in anything relating to college and never took the ACT. I did take the SAT which was incredibly easy for me.
Back in my day, I think more schools wanted the SAT then wanted the ACT, so check what the most likely schools for him to attend want before deciding whether he should take the SAT. Retake the ACT? He might move up–but probably not a whole lot. How much does it cost? How much is peace of mind worth? (Will taking it again if he doesn’t score significantly better provide peace of mind?)
His ACT score is one point below the AVERAGE? Find out how they calculate this average, but I’d be surprised if a fairly substantial portion (like 10-20%) of the student body doesn’t have a score lower than the averge.
What’s his GPA like, his class rank (as a percent, really, rather than #177 out of #455 or whatever), Does he/can he take AP courses? Is he bright and talented with a bad ACT score, or is he kind of mediocre with a representative ACT score? (If the former, let him retake the ACT but tell him his ACT score will probably not be the dealbreaker. If the latter, get him started thinking about other scholarly options. )
I never took the SATs, so I assume my score is effectively zero. I still got into college (twice). It’s really grades that make a difference. I had a good GPA and was highly ranked in high school. Ask him how the average can be 29 if no one below 29 is admitted. If that doesn’t convince him, drop the “comforting mom” approach and go for the “hard love” approach. Tell him to quit being such a pathetic wimp (or whatever works for you) and start filling out the application. If that doesn’t work, then I’m out of ideas.
Tell him not to obsess. 28 is pretty darn good. The highest possible score is a 36. He can re-test if he wants, but his score will be relatively stable. I will admit that I retested (to go from a 29 to a 30.) However much a school cares about scores, they care a lot more about personality and other achievements. At least that’s what I assume, 'cos I got a full scholarship and my SAT scores were not high, and looking at my individual ACT scores reveals that I got a whopping 15 in math… I was one step away from needing to take mandatory remedial math!
In the south, ACT scores are more frequently used than the SAT. 28 is a good score. If I recall correctly it was the minimum score to get a full academic scholarship and guaranteed placement to the state school I attended. I think it might be a few points off of being comfortable for gaining entry into the absolute first tier schools but the competition nowadays is insane and I’m not convinced that the cachet is worth it. There is always more to getting into a school than your test scores. He should relax.
Those are ok ACT scores, but what will really determine whether or not he gets in are grades, extracurriculars, and a challenging classload. He might want to re-test, but only if he was really “off” the day he took it the first time.
Thanks guys - he’s in the top 10% at school, he is pulling mostly A’s with three AP classes (English, Physics and Spanish) and was involved with sports, etc. He is also a Police Explorer and does community service work with them.
I think I’m just going to make an appointment with his school counselor and we’ll both talk with him. He also needs to talk to a Navy recruiter. I’ll tell him what you all said about retaking the test - I really don’t think he should.
It’s tough - he’s very driven and very smart - and I think he expects too much out of himself. I will have a talk with him this weekend - I was planning on taking him out just by ourselves for a birthday lunch anyway - hopefully I can help him feel a little better about this - he will be happy to know that his grades, extracurriculars and classload (thanks, silenus) will be more important factors - this should make him feel much better.
Sigh. Why couldn’t I have had an underachiever like his mom?
I also have a 17 year old HS Jr who recently took the ACT - in addition to a college fresh and HS soph. (BTW - when did he take the test? I don’t think my kid got his results yet.)
This is strictly from memory - I’m pretty comfortable as to the accuracy.
NU is private. Way back when, originally founded as Methodist. Very highly regarded academically in many majors. VERY very pricey. Top tier - over $40K/year. They give NO scholarships based on ability - all based on need. I know nothing about their ROTC program.
NU is VERY selective - way more folk apply than get accepted. 28 may not be high enough to be accepted there - especially if his GPA is not stellar and/or depending on his extracurriculars. Requirements may be higher in some of the more competitive majors.
Don’t get me wrong - 28 is a fine score, and will have many many good schools very eager to have your son attend. Just saying NU is one of the “elite” schools that a lot of the top gunners apply to - and get wait-listed by.
Sorry if this sounds unsupportive, but he may wish to consider NU his “stretch” school, and look for at least a couple of other fallback options.
Most schools accept either the ACT or the SAT. You’ll have to check the individual school - most list it on their website. After my kid took the ACT we cancelled his scheduled SAT session before they told him he qualified for the next step in the Nat’l Merit scholarship program based on the PSAT, and had to take it for the next step. I think he takes it next weekend or the week after.
If he wants to improve his chances to be accepted at a school like NW, he might want to take the ACT again or take the SAT. I do not know what schools’ policies are concerning applicants who take the tests multiple times - whether they just take the highest score or something else. But you hear of kids with ACT scores over 30 and in the top 10% of their classes getting wait-listed by U of I in some of their more competitive majors. So if he really wants NU, he might give it another go - and maybe try a prep test.
Personally, I don’t think most kids need that kind of pressure, and think they’d be perfectly happy at some other college.
Feel free to private message me if you wish to discuss more.
Dins - he took it a few weeks ago I think. They are all just now getting their results.
I’ll definitely be talking to him this weekend about fall back options - I don’t think he understands what NU is really all about to tell you the truth. Besides, he needs to talk to the Naval recruiter before he starts making decisions like this anyway - his college choices will have to be within the guidelines of the ROTC program.
Thanks - and oh - I think we’ll pursue the SAT (that’s what I took way back - way WAY back) just as an option.
Here’s a bunch of info. I admit that I’m confused about the recent changes in the standardized testing, regarding the writing and reasoning portions.
They also say that the middle 50% of incoming students score between 29-33, which means that 25% score below 29. So your kid makes it on that basis. And they show something like 65% of kids in their top 5% of their HS class, and maybe 80% in top 10%, so your kid qualifies there.
Why is there extreme focus on Northwestern? A 28 is a good score but almost no one can be assured admission to any particular school. I have seen stats on Harvard where they show how many students with perfect SAT scores they reject every year both as bragging and to illustrate a point. However, lots of students get into Harvard with much less than perfect SAT scores too.
There are a huge number of excellent colleges in the U.S. by any standard. It think your son should cast a wider net even if NW sends a limo to pick him up today. Schools have different personalites and some people are miserable at a school they loved on paper.
If he wants to enroll in ROTC, Texas A&M has a gigantic program and it is like a state university combined with a military academy. It isn’t all that expensive either. My alma mater, Tulane, has a suprisingly large ROTC presence representing all the branches (I was in Air Force ROTC for a while).
Those are just two examples and there are literally hundreds more with some being at least as good as NorthWestern.
Shagnasty, I’m not sure why he has such a lock on NW - it’s somewhat odd because he hasn’t even mentioned it before - I just found out when I got his scores and they said what schools they had been sent to. And I agree - there are a ton of very very good schools that he should be looking at as well - I’m going to certainly point him in that direction. Again, with ROTC, he may have to look at a state school - and there’s nothing wrong at all with the Illinois State Schools!!! IMO, he’d do very well at any of them - I need to get him looking at those options too. Perhaps a trip to the Library after our lunch would be in order…
That part isn’t always true. I mentioned Tulane and ROTC and Tulane is as private as they come. I obviously don’t know where all the good ROTC programs are but there must be something on-line that you or he can cross-reference quickly. They aren’t rare in most parts of the country.
I will definitely check it out this weekend with him at the library! That’s very interesting - he’d love to go out of state if possible - I think us looking at this will make him feel a lot better - sometimes he doesn’t see “options” if that makes sense - he can be somewhat “black and white” when it comes to his thinking. Hopefully this will help him see that there are wonderful options above and beyond just NW. At least I hope so!
Thanks again you guys - I feel a lot better - now hopefully I can get HIM to feel better.
Hope you all have a great holiday - I have a birthday cake I have to go pick up.
My son was initially interested in attending a military academy. A visit to West Point cured him of that. Then he was thinking ROTC, but the current situation helped lessen his enthusiasm for that. But when I checked, most colleges offer as least one ROTC program, and the larger schools offer programs for more than one branch of the military.
ROTC works 2 ways. Either you apply for a ROTC scholarship as a HS student, which is a very competitive program. Or once you get accepted to a particular school, you apply to be enrolled in their ROTC program. Plenty of info available on both options on-line.
With my kids, we narrowed down their choices of schools considerably with a couple of questions:
-First, what general areas did they want to study? For example, if your kid wants to be a nuclear physicist, that would likely rule out some small liberal arts schools.
-Then we asked if they had any preference as to where they wanted to go to school - in the Midwest, or somewhere else.
-Then, we asked if they had a preference as to the size of school. Did they prefer a small school where they would know and be known by a lot of people, or a more anonymous large school, or somewhere in between.
-Finally, we asked if they had a preference between a school that was located in a big city or a small town.
In our experience, how your kid answers those questions will go a long way towards narrowing down his choices. And, if a kid is not deadset on a specific major which is best met at a certain pricey school, my personal opinion is that it is most economical to get your bachelor’s at a more affordable school - either a state school or a private college that offers you aid - and then spend the big bucks on any graduate education he wishes to pursue.
NU is by all reports an excellent school, and its grads seem to be in much demand by prospective employers. But if I’m helping foot the bill, I sure would question if a bachelor’s from NU (at estimated $49K per year) were worth 2X the cost of U of I, or 3X the cost of ISU or Northern.
I may have missed it in reading through the posts, but is he a member of an underrepresented minority? Do you have particular connections at Northwestern (alumni parents…large donors…)? Does he have really mitigating factors (such as overcoming a handicap, e.g)?
If none of the above are true, an ordinary-background white male with below-average standardized scores for Northwestern does not stand a good chance of being accepted at NW. While it is true that many scores are below the mean, the mean is hugely skewed by students in the categories I mentioned above. The ordinary-background white male students have standardized scores well above the mean.
It takes a bit of post-college wisdom to recognize that the brand name of the college you go to does not carry nearly as much weight in your success as your native abilities and drive do. It opens some doors, and that’s about it. It is very easy to get focused on one school and then feel like a total failure if you don’t get in. Let him apply wherever he wants but use the process as a learning experience as well.
I can’t offer any advice about the ROTC situation, but there are a few points that I can raise with the ACT. Just to clarify, the 28-33 range is the 25th percentile and the 75th percentile of enrolled students for the previous year. This means that one quarter of the class has less than a 29. Cite (scroll to C9)
In order to be admitted with a score below the median, my experience in undergrad and law school admissions indicates that you have to set yourself apart in some other area in order to be admitted. In other words, they have to find a reason to accept you rather than with someone with a 33, who they would need to find a reason to reject you. Certainly, all is far from lost but when/if he applies, he’ll really need to sell himself.
On preview, what Chief Pendant said.
I would suggest signing up for a retake, after he takes a few weeks to reassess and determine where he could have done better. Purely anecdotal, I retook with a 28 and scored a 33 the next try. I just looked at where I had problems, bought some practice tests at Barnes and Noble, and just did a couple sections where I had problems (math, ugh). A 28 leaves him with lots of open doors. Good luck Missy2U. I know that this is a stressful, but hopefully fun and exciting time as well.
For what it is worth, ACT test scores can vary a few points if you re-take it. They swear that all of their tests are of equal difficulty, but I don’t believe it. The 3 times I took it, I got an average of 34, 29, and 32 in that order, so there is definitely some wiggle room.
Firstly, a quick google shows that Northwestern offers ROTC for the Naval Reserve and Marine Corps, and its students can participate in ROTC for the Army through the University of Illinois at Chicago or ROTC for the Air Force at the Illinois Institute of Technology.
Secondly and sort of an aside, you didn’t mention why he picked Northwestern, but I’ve always been a big fan of Dinsdale’s approach – with an emphasis on going to a school that’s well-regarded for a planned major and the addition of visiting different types of campuses to see which ones he likes: e.g. The University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign and Indiana University Bloomington are roughly the same size (according to Wikipedia, IU has about 4,000 fewer total students than U of I), but have very different atmospheres (IMO, of course).
