My wife and I met in high school (in algebra class, to be exact). We dated then, broke up, dated more in college, broke up, dated after college, broke up. Finally, when we were both in our mid-twenties, we got together and stayed together. We had kids in 2002 (daughter) & 2004 (son).
We were driving somewhere the other day and my wife commented that she wished we had married sooner, and started our family sooner, and I replied that it would have been nice, but that we probably wouldn’t have ended up with the same kids we have. We might have had a boy first, then a girl, or maybe two boys, or two girls, or etc. But, whoever we ended up with for children, they almost undoubtedly would be two very different children than the ones we actually had. At first, my wife disagreed, but after some discussion, she came to agree with me. I think the argument that finally persuaded her was “If we had 12 kids, no two would be exactly alike, so the two we’ve got are specific to the circumstances and timing of their conception and birth”(or something similar).
Anyways, do you agree? Would we have produced more or less the same two children, if we had them in 1992 & 1994, or 1996 & 1998, instead of 2002 & 2004? Or would they have been totally different people, conceived under slightly different circumstances and at a different time?
You would have had different kids for sure. We have discussed this in time travel threads. Most time travel fiction is hopelessly flawed because it almost always describes rather large events as being the ones that will change the timeline when, in fact, it doesn’t take much of anything to change a conception event and, by extension, the whole future world.
Conception is a chaotic process that depends on one particular sperm out of countless millions winning the race to the egg. It doesn’t take a large alteration in the timeline to change which possible kids you end up with. Even a slight change in sexual position is more than enough to do it. The fact that someone cut in line in front of you two days before is probably also enough as well.
Drill Sergeant: Jesus H Christ, Jester! 200 million sperm and you were the fastest?
You’d have had randomly different kids depending on which genes they ended up with, age of the parents, environmental, general health, and emotional states of at least mom if not you…jillions of factors. Except for me. All my spawn were destined to be batshit fukups like their old man.
First I disagree, those children would perhaps be different, as much as you are different from you several years earlier, but in their case they can get their genetic composition from the start to express their difference.
Then I agree, You or her may have been in a different place in life and may have attracted different children to you. It is not just your decision to have children, the children have a say as to who will be their parents.
You haven’t met me and my two brothers. Oh, we look reasonably alike alright but the similarity stops there. Our personalities are completely different and have been since birth. The same is true for my two daughters. It isn’t just little things either. We are talking full-blown personality opposites on many key traits. I know I didn’t make my daughters behave in any certain way and I don’t believe my parents or any environmental effects made me and my brothers the way that we are. It was just a random roll of the dice.
In any given family, there are likely a huge number of very influential genes floating around for any potential child. Some of them are life altering or even fatal in the case of the middle child that we lost due to a 100% fatal genetic disease (it turned out that there was a 1 in 4 chance of certain early death for any child that we had). Others influence things ranging from personality to appearance but they are all very important.
I would agree with Shagnasty – wow! second time in history – but with slightly different reasoning:
We (people in general) have understood for centuries that human development is a mixture of Nature and Nurture (genetic versus environmental factors) and time has seen the pendulum swinging back and forth between the two arguments. Shagnasty has provided a beautiful explanation of how/why the kids’ exact genes would probably be different, but the timing of their birth(s) would also have resulted in different world events (micro- and macroscopic) affecting their growth, their perceptions, and their behaviors.
In January every year I used to see (now I ignore them) an editorial column that would say, “Kids born in the United States this year will (1) Never understand how difficult it was to program a VCR – or why it was important to do so. (2) Fail to appreciate food that is not pre-packaged or served quickly at a restaurant. (3) Always know the squential digits 9, 1, 1 as a historic date rather than a new telephone code for contacting emergency services.” et cetera, et cetera… These subtle changes in the experiences of daily life make up who we are and how we’ll affect others and effect changes in our world. These differences in the context – the environment – in which they learn and grow will shape who they are through the stages of their lives, and who they become as they age.
And, lest you think “Well, at least the wife and I would be constants in the equation!” in fact the difference in timing and events and conditions would also affect the two of you and how you interact with the kids. Married & started the family out of high school? After college? During a harsh winter? After a severe drought? Just after winning the lottery? Just after Wall Street crashed? The difference in personal financial conditions as well as national/global economic circumstances would have affected what you could afford (or even consider) providing for the kids which would, in turn, affect their perspectives on life and reality. And all the little differences would contributed to make different little people.
—G!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
But you’re here now.
Be here. Now.
I have twins. Officially they were born 60 seconds apart, but in reality it was more like 10. They’re completely different individuals. I can’t imagine how different they’d be if they were born at different times.
I’ve pondered this same question in a different context. I have two daughters. In between them I had a miscarriage. Now, had that miscarriage not occurred, I would not have conceived a third child. (I needed medical assistance to conceive, so I can say that fairly reliably.)
So – is my younger daughter the same person who never got past 18 weeks in utero? Or a completely different person? Did she “get lost” and try again? Or a completely different person?
Same thing with my daughters. Before the youngest one was born, I naïvely thought she’d be a copy of the eldest one. They couldn’t be more different.
The eldest one is thin and tall for her age, has very dark brown eyes, brown hair and light brown skin. She’s shy, a bit serious and unsure but conscientious, bright and sporty. Her little sister is on the chubby side, has blond hair, blue eyes and pale skin. She’s huggy, very funny and whimsical but a bit lazy and not too concerned about school.
Makes you wonder how a third one would have turned out…
I disagree with you. I’m not the same person I was many years ago, but I’m not 180° (or even more) different. I’ve had different jobs, but basically the same career my whole working life. My level of personal financial conservativeness (spend vs. save vs. invest) hasn’t drastically changed. I may take a less expensive or no vacation in a down year, but I know that the economy cycles & will come back again after the next recession. I haven’t had a life altering financial change (lottery win)
Me raising a given child vs. you or someone else, absolutely the nuture would be different. However, I don’t see me raising a child now vs. me raising a child at some point in the past or future to be that much different for the same child (assuming that that same given child could be born before/after they were actually born).
– but with slightly different reasoning: