I’ll reply on a couple of things you wrote before…-
how do think would Israel “MILK” the minute of silence to it’s own propaganda? the minute is not even an Israeli government request… it is a request made by the victim’s families.. accepting it doesn’t mean that occupying the west-bank or other things that Israel does are o.k by the IOC … **only antisemitic can do this connection that mourning dead athletes is accepting Israeli foreign policies…
**
about your division to people that are pro-palestinian or pro-israeli…- you might find it surprising but I’m sure that most people from non-Arab countries that are so called pro-Palestinian = disagree with Israeli policy(occupation and etc) still think there should be a minute of silence…
the anti-semite card is a popular card- in cases with no rationale behind them like lets say- refusing a minute of silence only because the victims are from a certain color\race
ationality.. any way it is more common to say nowadays that someone is an anti-Israeli and not antisemitic…since being antisemitic make you look really racist, but saying that you are anti-Israeli means you only disagree with Israeli views… but actually in many cases (NOT all) it is just an cover for the true anti..no one says that disagreeing with Israeli policy makes you anti-Jew but in many cases the disagreement is just blind and motivated by other issues..
but you are right - by agreeing to this request the IOC will be considered by the Arab world as pro-Israeli (or even “RACIST” as Palestinian official said).. but except showing what a distorted vision Arab countries have about things, it doesn’t say anything.
the funny thing is that you don’t see never Israel threatening to boycott this and that, it’s always the same countries with their boycott threat- “allow our women to compete while wearing a curtain on their face, or else…” and etc.. if the IOC would have any fairness, they would have send those boycott countries to compete in their own shit.. it’s not like those countries have an enormous number of elite athletes.. in recent Olympics all 20+ Arab countries combined had won approximately 10 medals out of 4000 each Olympic game.. so you won’t really feel anything missing..
since I’ve also been in Palestine I can say that for every ten Palestinians there are only two opinions.. so I’m really interested to know what is this diversity of opinions in Palestinian population..?
Please multiquote. Double posting is generally somewhat unnecessary. Triple posting just looks silly.
This is an English message board, even if you have quality ideas, being unable to obey the rules of basic grammar, usage and syntax makes your posts difficult to read and your ideas, however good, look less attractive.
You also have serious problems with some of your ideas. There is no necessary connection between being bigoted against Israel and being racist against Jews. Plenty of people who are not anti-semites can still claim that, through some strange alchemy, a moment of silence somehow endorses Israel’s policies. There are plenty of people who, through their actions and arguments, reveal prejudice and bigotry against Israel as a nation and/or Israelis are people. There are also plenty of anti-Israel crusaders who also hate Jews and whose antisemitism motivates them to cleave to an anti-Israel position. But, especially since the anti-Israel brigade is only too happy to preemptively hop up on the cross and bemoan now they’ll be called anti-semites (most of whom have never been called anti-semites for their anti-Israel views, ever), keep your powder dry for when it’s necessary. Yes, the Dope does have a very small number of anti-Semites, but they’re generally few and far between. The large majority of people here, as in the world in general, who adopt stupid arguments are, simply, stupid.
That is extremely presumptuous of you to say that “no one considers him an American”.
Furthermore, haven’t you heard of dual-citizenship?
He never renounced his US citizenship and was both American and Israeli.
Similarly, I was born in Iran to a mother who was an American citizen and a father who wasn’t so I am both American and Iranian.
Moreover, huge numbers of Americans Jews opt for both American and Israeli citizenship.
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to make a huge point, just to let Farmer Jane know, if she wasn’t already aware, that one of the murdered athletes was an American Jew.
I would respectfully disagree. The Palestinians are as famous for splintering as the Israelis are.
I’m sure he had dual citizenship.. but that’s not the point..
what I’m saying is that by the whole world in general, and by the IOC\Arab countries in particular, he isn’t considered as an American.. but rather as an Israeli athlete.
o.k… I got the point
2.I’ll try to improve my grammar but you will have to accept that even though this is an English massage board, not all of the massages will be written by an English-native speaker.. my main languages are Russian and Hebrew.
but I accept your notes.
3.this strange alchemy through which a moment of silence somehow endorses Israel’s policies… can you elaborate on that subject? because I think the connection can be made only by -
A. idiots with no knowledge about Munich 72 or the middle east conflict. (and this group I consider those who are anti-Israeli without any reasonable explanation)
B. brain-washed people who think that the lies they embraced are facts ruth..
C. anti-Semites..
the point I make is that I’m sure there are in London and all over the globe plenty of people that strongly disagree with Israeli policy, but since they are reasonable they can separate between the two things,and only the groups above will find the separation as impossible..
I know this is massively after the discussion has ended, but I left to go on holiday (Herräng Dance Camp, if you want to know) the day after the opening ceremony and this discussion was ongoing. I just want to respond to this as it is quite clearly directed at me.
FinnAgain, I am used to this from you now. You’ve read what you wanted to see and ignored anything else. Regarding Politics being involved, here are three things I have said and a fourth new one for you. From that I’ll leave it to the reader to decide if it is all “crocodile-tears-claims” and/or just me hating The Joos.
I do not want politics brought into it. Using the specific example I was asked, regarding if it was IRA terrorists killing British athletes, I was clear in saying that I still don’t think it should be a thing in the opening ceremony.
I did concede that although I don’t want politics brought into it, something in the opening or closing ceremony of the actual games where it happens would be more appropriate.
The “Israelis are not civilised” was quite clearly me saying what people from other Middle East countries and/or hyper left wing people would say. It was clear that it was not my viewpoint and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to imply otherwise. This mischaracterisation of what other people say is a large part of why many people on here either have you on ignore or refuse to “debate” with you. Frankly, what you wrote there disgusts me and is a perfect example of someone so partisan they simply cannot even see the other side any more.
And here’s the bonus:
Since watching the ceremony I have found out that the “Abide with Me” segment (you know, the bit that NBC cut out so they could have a very important interview with Mr Phelps) was a tribute to those that died in the July 7th bombings. I do not think they should have done this. Still shows utter lack of class by the American broadcaster - and let’s stop to think for a second what would have happened if say the UK or, shudder, France had cut out a tribute to those that died in September 11th - and I really don’t think that agreeing with me over politics in the ceremonies was their motivation.
As I just wrote, but I may as well reply to you as well, I wasn’t aware that that was the reason (I remember hearing the Swedish commentator say how the song is sung at every FA Cup Final, so seeing it in a sporting context is not unusual to me). I will quite clearly state that I don’t think it was appropriate. You may think I am wrong, but I am consistent.
Although that other guy probably still thinks I hate “The Jews”.
More innocent than the innocent Palestinian and Israeli civilians that have been killed over the years by Israeli and Palestinian actions by less innocent people.
The point is athletes are not “more innocent” that everyday innocent civilians just because they are athletes. But nice work on trying to hit me with the anti-Semitic thing. Seems to happen quite a lot when Israel is discussed no matter what anyone says. The default position for the likes of you and FinnAgain is “if they don’t agree with me they are anti-Semites”.
You disgust me. People like you are a large part of the problem.
And I thank them for it. I’ve stood at the war memorial in my home town on Remembrance Sunday enough times to be comfortable with my feelings towards them. Still doesn’t mean they should appear in everything though.
Maybe it is part of being British, we thank our servicemen but don’t treat them like demigods. What next? Have them present kids TV shows? “If it weren’t for them and people like them you’d be watching Peppa Pig in some other language. French, German, Spanish, take your pick.” Maybe we should always get the news from men in service uniforms. That usually works well.
Is Israel big on moments of silence for the murdered? I kinda had the impression their version of solemn commemoration was hunting the killers down and putting lead into them.
Politics are already mixed in with the Olympics. Notice how Taiwan was forced at the opening ceremony to call itself “Chinese Taipei”, Macedonia was forced to call itself “The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” and “Palestine” was able to send a delegatation while countless other groups who have equal or greater claim to being a nation weren’t.
Awww, you wound me!
Tell us more about how it’s wrong to involve politics and you don’t want the athletes given a moment of silence because they were Israeli. (Oh, I know, I know, if the memorial had happened immediately at the closing ceremony 40 years ago that’d be okay, but now your objection is principled and just) Naturally, your inability to actually point out a single thing I “ignored” doesn’t indicate that you’re simply blustering. Nope, I really did ignore things you just hey look over there!!!
Naturally, you’re now adding babble about how I’ve accused you of “hating The Joos”. Curious, that. While you complain about things I “ignored”, you’ve invented something which doesn’t exist. Curiouser and curiouser.
Mmmm hmmmmm.
What was the quote, exactly? “The problem is there are some that don’t see the Israelis as civilised and see their current actions as akin to what South Africa was doing.” And, obviously, you’d never champion the idea that Israel is an Apartheid State and, oh…
Awwww, I feel for you, someone is ascribing your own opinions to your own statements. How shameful! I’ll put on a hair shirt immediately. Oh, and:
Keeping within GD rules, I will simply state that your claim here is so wildly false and malicious that it taints every other word you type and casts doubt on the basic credibility of your argument.
Finn and I disagree quite strongly on Israel and he has never once suggested I was anti-Semitic. Also, I don’t think he accused you of anti-Semitism in this thread.
Since Marley said the comment didn’t belong in the GD, forget I asked. I’d edit it out but time has passed I can’t.
Apologies to all. If one of the mods wouldn’t mind editing my post to get rid of that question and part where I quoted Amanset that would be great since its not fair to leave a question like that out there that Aman can’t answer in GD.
Simply for the record (although I’m reasonably sure I’ve said it before) I find your posts to be generally knowledgeable, consistent, honest and free of obfuscation. Your commitment to logical consistency is particularly laudable. While you and I most certainly have our disagreements, from Balfour on forwards in history, I’ve never found you to be anything but an honorable debater.
If more people who shared your views had your virtues, debates about the I/P issue on the board would be far better.
And simply for the record, Amanset’s claim about me calling people anti-Semites in this thread is curiously at odds with the facts. This is what I actually said.
Well I’ve said it several times now. It isn’t my fault that you are so blinded by your own partisan nature that you apparently can’t read it.
To put it simply, I don’t like politics in sport full stop. Nothing to do with anyone being Israeli. It is to do with it being politics. I used three examples in this thread, one hypothetical (minutes silence for IRA victims) and two real (use of British military personnel and the apparent 7th July tribute in the opening ceremony) to illustrate this. It is you that wants to drag this into it really being about what you imagine my views on Israel to be. It is offensive, wrong and frankly reportable as you are through wholly dishonest means trying to portray me as the anti-Semite that I am not.
You’re not very good at this understanding that “saying what other people think doesn’t actually mean that you think it yourself” thing, are you?
I’d say it describes you down to a tea and you claiming otherwise simply makes you look comically unaware.
“The default position for the likes of you and FinnAgain”
At the very least, Shodan and FinnAgain have wilfully ignored what I have written to try and claim that it is instead an issue I have with Jewish people.
People not listening or reading what others have written and instead following wholly partisan and idealogical lines. It makes debate about such topics at best pointless and at worst makes the situation deteriorate.
Personally I think people ignoring every single time that I say I have issues with politics in sport when Brits do it about British things so they can claim I really have an issue with Jews and/or Israel is a much bigger problem which should be addressed by the moderators.
