And if that doesn’t work? Then what do we do? Please be specific.
Bolding mine
Remember Falujjah? When the Iraqi army ran off? What do we do if we are unable to properly train them?
Please don’t reply “train them harder” either, I want specifics.
Easiest thing in the world. Simply define “win” according to your needs. The Bushiviks have already done this with the upcoming elections, they have made it clear that just about anything will be a stunning victory. They have the results calibrated from “success” through “astonishing success” to “thundering landslide of an avalanche of a success.” The press releases are already written, pending a few amendations.
Freedom is on the lurch!
I suppose you’re right. I’d like to press them for specifics, but since they’re not here, Ryan will have to represent them.
Sorry, but believe it or not, you’re really not important enough that I need to remember what I say to you from one day to another. Besides, with your startling stupidity and ignorance, someone has to smack you upside the head every now and again. Looks like I’ve drawn the short straw.
~yawn~
Now explain how we get from here to there? And what happens when our troops have to pull out? Also, try to do the mental gymnastics to figure that UN peacekeepers are, wait for it, wait for it, wait for it… peacekeepers! Gee, ya think they could work to keep the peace if the coalition withdrew? Nawwww, that’s krezzy tawk.
Yes, and now we’ve kept the torture rooms open and we’re still killing Iraqis. Remind me exactly what the point of this quagmire was again?
Don’t let facts get in the way of your ignorance. No, really.
Like these facts
In other words, idiots like you are trying to cram something down the throats of people who want you the fuck out of their country.
You are a stupid idealogue, I am not. You are deliberately ignoring or profoundly ignorant of facts, I am not. Etc, etc, etc…
Do you even buy your own bullshit? This is supposed to be about the Iraqi people, right? They want us gone. And you, like an impearlist stooge, refuse to leave because we simply must ram our values down their throats.
Sometimes Ryan, your ignorance is only outpaced by your lack of higher cognitive functions. Our vision of democracy does not include a Muslim theocracy. This should be simple enough for even you to comprehend. Tell me, what then do we do if the Iraqis elect a theocratic government which is hostile to the United States?
Last time your country was invaded it was by Sadaam and he used poison gas? Ya don’t say…
And, by the way, Rumsfeld was one of the folks who gave Sadaam the WMD in the first place. Little hole in your theory there, eh?
I see… Wanna wager on how many people are killed in sunday’s elections? How about how many Iraqis view them as legitimate? How about setting a timetable for US withdrawal? Point to any freakin’ sucesses, and, not the simple fact that they’re going to try to hold elections, you have to do better than that.
No, see, this is why you’re scum. You think your ideology is worth other people’s deaths. They do not agree. But you, in your impearilistic hubris, decide that you know best.
Training a force, eh? How’s that going? And, as for alternatives, does your brain have a block against the letters U and N when used in conjunction?
And, this whopper “a few mistakes???”
Like how this was has been based on phoney/faulty intel from the word go? How the reasons for it were bogus? How it was misplanned, mismanaged, and is continuing to spiral out of our control?
Your optimism isn’t based on facts I’m afraid, and people are dying for it. But you don’t care, because you’re an idealogue.
By the way, if this war is such a sucess, why is the road from Iraq’s major airport a veritable DMZ? You need a military escort to get in and out of that place, surely this is not your version of sucess?
Must be really nice to not have to deal with pesky ‘facts’ or ‘reality’, eh?
In case you’re wondering, Sadaam, tortured people. Coalition forces, torture people. Sadaam killed his enemies. Coalition forces, kill their enemies. Sadaam, had his prisoners raped. Coalition forces, have raped their prisoners. Luckily they’re free from tyrany now.
Then again, if you consider not being able to walk the streets in safety a better deal… hey, violent anarchy versus violent dictatorship, it’s a win-win situation in the Ryanverse.
Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu, Ennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.
Say it with me.
And, besides, you don’t have polls to back up your idiocy. I, however, have solid statistics to back up my claims. Gee, wonder what your boundless optimism is based on, could it be… ideology?
No, I think you’re a person of sub-average intelligence who is cheerleading for this war.
Well, you sure as hell do now.As such, I don’t give a damn what you used to believe, as you’re dead wrong now, and your support of this war allows it to continue. It’s on your head, no matter how you try to escape responsibility.
So, you didn’t believe the lies, but you did support the invasion because it would lead to blah blah blah. Most people can’t contradict themselves like that, you’ve got a gift Ryan.
Have you even read the reports about this election? How many Iraqis aren’t even being allowed to register until the day of the elections itself? How many groups don’t consider them to be legitimate? How citizens are terrified of going to vote and terrorists have been targeting the mechanisms of voting? Yeah, it’s gonna turn out just peachy.
Mmm hmmm. Melodramatic, do you even know what that word means?
You have it fine sitting in a country that isn’t a warzone, and even though the Iraqis want you to leave, you refuse to, because you’re an idealogue. And you don’t even have the humanity to be ashamed.
Oh, and…
Which is it? They’ve got it extremely bad, and thus we’re failing at the goal of making things better for them… or, it’s not extremely bad, and thus isn’t a disaster? Can’t have it both ways little idealogue.
Are you really that stupid?
We’re turning Iraq into terrorist central, we’re helping their recruiting and training.
Can your brain really not handle the fact that these actions will have what we adults like to call ‘consequences?’
Yes, this will have dire consequences, and it doesn’t matter if Bush will leave office in another four years because the damage will have already been done.
Godwin calling for an idealogue out of touch with reality. Is there an idealogue out of touch with reality in the house? Oh, Ryan, it’s for you.
And, by the way, Sadaam wasn’t a threat, he was contained, and we weren’t in a policy of appeasement with him. Your Godwinized analogy does not hold.
Moreoever, even if he was a threat, that still doesn’t mean that we should’ve run a piss poor war effort with spotty intel and un-armored humvees.
Conclusion? What facts is this based on? Is violence decreasing? Do they Iraqis view us as liberators? No? Oh… wonder what an idealogue could possibly base his false-to-facts worldview on…
Bravo, FinnAgain. That was elequent. It won’t do a whit of good but thanks for the effort. 
I’m becoming convinced that there is a level of ignorance that cannot be successfully fought. It is disheartening, but true. People like Ryan will never admit their flawed reasoning.
But retard, what about those 500,000 Iraqi children who died because of the sanctions :rolleyes: it doesn’t matter what I say, something else will always crop up for you to argue against, because I get the impression it doesn’t matter what the US does, it will always be wrong, except for mitigating circumstances ala ‘world war two’ springs to mind.
Considering the UN headquarters got bombed in 2003, I don’t necessarily think they’d be welcome in the country. It would be too dangerous.
Yes torture rooms :rolleyes: we’re as bad as Saddam, maybe worse, what will you say next, the US army and its Allies roast babies?
If thats so then why are 100 or so parties entertaining the idea of an election to the assembly dumbass?
Yes Finn, you’re not a stupid ideologue who regards everthing the US has done in Iraq as a failure. Yes, you’re not an ideologue :rolleyes:
I’ve never ignored facts on the ground, I think sacking the police force and dropping Sunnis out of the government was a huge mistake, bringing about an increase in the resolve of the insurgency, but it doesn’t waver my support for the US Coalition and the Iraqi government in bringing stability.
Yes I must be an imperialist to those pesky Arabs who would like a voice in their own government :rolleyes:
What values are we talking about? Free expression? Democratic representative governance? How are those alien to the Iraqi people? How are they alien to any part of the Human race?
The fact that a theocratic government couldn’t rule Iraq without massive sectarian rebellion is proof it is unlikely to happen at all dumbass.
http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=64981
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-me/2005/jan/24/012400085.html
‘Shiites don’t envision Islamic state’
Well you know, my girlfriends was, and he gassed thousands you know? his army raped countless women, killed thousands of men, all which were thought to be a threat to his regime, Kurdistan has had it rough, but yeah, they don’t count do they?
So? We’ve supplied dictators, its abhorrent, wrong and downright stupid, so this means we can’t invade a certain number of years later because of this? The Soviets divided Germany and expanded their ideology around the globe, does this mean we should of not acted against the Soviet Union?
80% of the country wants to hold elections, why should it be posponed because of a minority? A timetable for US withdrawal will be most likely set when the standards of Iraqi forces traning is met, which I admit is low, but doesn’t mean it can’t improve. The fact Iraqis are out there voting is a testimony to their dedication in establishing a free society
No refugees going abroad?
the reclaiming of Fallujah from insurgents, the insurgents failure to take Mosul, Shia resolve in not initiating retalitory strikes against Sunnis, the Shias attempts to try and bring in Sunnis into government processes, free press, free radio and tv stations, an economy which increases 50% per year, freedom for 28 million citizens, to march in protest, to speak freely, to elect a government they choose, regardless of US opinions.
Give me liberty or give me death, simple as that. No one is ever safe under tyranny, ever.
What good will the UN do against a terrorist organisation which regards anyone who isn’t part of their puritanical Islam an infidel, and countless terrorist groups which regard it as a model to their pracitises? The UN wouldn’t be able to cope with such a situtation on the ground as it is in Iraq. This isn’t Yugoslavia, its Iraq. Besides the UN has proven itself useless when genocide and slaughter occurs, like Rwanda, or Lebanon.
So you think we should spare the Iraqis our time and withdraw because we’ve made a few fuckups? It happens in every war, get used to it.
Yes it was based on bullshit evidence, if you’d bother to read the comment I made you’d see I was in full agreeance in that regard, what I don’t believe is that the situation is getting out of control, I believe the insurgents are trying to make us believe this is what is happening, with a few examples, such as car bombs with more explosives, more destructive quality, you’ll see reports of attacks such as frequent ambuses, firefights, mortaring have gone down, where carbombing as gone up, its a classic tactic for maximum media exposure.
Yes, tarnish me with a brush which you accuse the bushites of doing when they try to convince you, but I don’t care I believe in the Iraqi government, its people, and their resolve to get what government they want freely and the insurgents defeated. I don’t see how being optimistic is a bad thing regarding Iraq.
Insurgents have brains, they’ll pick targets which they regard will allow them maximum exposure, other than the fact Air cargo comes from the airport to US/Iraqi bases, and the fact its highly valuable, would make it a very big target. Shit, the mafia did it in the States for years, the value of cargo in coming from JFK was worth 30 billion, its an obvious target, and I learnt that from Goodfellas 
I do deal with reality, everyday, I’ve researched this damn war for almost 8 months, looked everywhere, chosen differing opinions and I still have boundless optimism, the road we’re on is hard, but not unwinnable, and certainly not another Vietnam. Trying to tarnish me as a Bushie is laughable. Considering me an idiot or moron for believing in the Coalitions efforts and not dwelling on its fuckups is bewlidering 
Yes they are. Coalition troops don’t do it for no reason, and those people who did those awful things? They’ve been you know, tried and convicted. Saddam certainly would of allowed that wouldn’t he :rolleyes:
Coalition don’t do it en masse and are willing to admit their mistakes, Saddam did not, case closed.
Yeah, half a million babies and children dead compared to how many dying now?
Organised terror within a repressive regime, as to the terror they experience now is alot worse, at least they have a government they can turn to, not one which would turn a blind eye to their oppression.
What opportunities would a Shia, or Kurd have under such conditions of a Saddam dictatorship, why does it seem to you that 20% of the population of Arab Sunnis be allowed to oppress 80% of the population in some sort of quasi apartheid, its the usual case of one rule for one, one rule for another.
the Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu NNNNNNNNN has no balls when it comes to situations like this, and the situation in which it can operate is tenous at best, remember dickhead, if we left right now, people like Al Zarqawi wouldn’t stop killing Shias, or Kurds, in his fight to promote increased sectarianism.
USA today
'and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger’
So why would the Iraqi government consider them to be pulled out if they knew the civillians they represent would be immediately harmed further than they already were being? Its a catch 22 scenario, they pull out and disaster, they don’t and the population is somewhat disgruntled, I think I know which they would choose to ensure the longevity of the system which was put in place.
So then a Bush supporter 
I don’t think cutting lose the Iraqis at this point is something worth considering, and is extremely dumb.
Wow, such ferocity against me supporting the Iraqi government which is commited to fighting insurgents against the idea of elections and representative government and liberty, don’t worry, I’m not escaping responsibility, I fully support the Coalitions efforts and will be accountable to its faillngs, knowing fully that its could either contribute to its success or failure. However, I still regard Iraq is on the right path.
I didn’t support the invasion, however I knew there would be no way for me to stop it. I do however support the Iraqi interim government and the Coalition which is defending it wholeheartedly.
Pity no one looks at Colombia and considers their elections illegitimate. Even though 40% of the country is not in full control.
Who the hell said I thought it would turn out great? I support them voting, I support them going out and at least trying, and I suppor the Iraqi and Coalition governments in bringing about this momentous change. Freedom comes with a price, like all states which achieved it, its not different for Iraq, even though unfair.
You know adding drama to a situation which has already been predicted to be violent.
Yes because somehow I’m in Iraq. I don’t see anything to be ashamed of by helping Iraqis bring democracy and liberty. Yes you use the warzone cliche on me, but remember you’re not in a warzone either, and don’t know the value of voting for a government of your choice, you’ve not been oppressed for nearly all your goddamn life or considered lower than a Sunni higher class.
??? Iraqis have it bad in ways of security, but in ways in which they can express themselves and decide what they want, they have it good. The decision to have freedom of expression and liberty is more than the price of security.
I don’t deny terrorists are flocking to Iraq for Jihad, but then again this sends the message to Muslims in other countries of what type of people they’ll deal with if they ever came to power, thus strengthening there resolve against them. Once the support for their actions against Iraqi civilians has completely dried up, and this process is halfway with Zarqawis ridiculous statement, then the attacks will eventually decrease.
You’re absolutely right, but it also doesn’t mean we should chuck the Iraqis to the rotweiler terrorists either.
Right whatever, anyway. My conclusions are that the Iraqis shouldn’t be abandoned, because you’d all be complaining about that and drawing comparisons from the 91 uprising after the gulf campaign.
May I remind people that while Ryan_Liam has unbound confidence that the Iraqi people will grasp democracy(as defined by the US and to a much lesser degree their allies) and follow the west into the cherished world of “freedom” he is also on record on this site as being very concerned about Muslim immigration into his fair isle as he worries about the dilution of his culture. It would seem that he has confidence in people once they aren’t in his neighbourhood.
He’s a moronic short sighted muppet who will dish out shite as fact once it fits into his rather small sad and angry little world.
On preview I see he’s still banging on and also still aping his good buddy Brutus by using “retard” as an insult. A word which isn’t really used in his part of the world but he has obviously noticed it gains some extra replies when used on Americans.
He should be ignored not debated with. YMMV naturally.
yojimbo: There’s something zen about fighting such simple minded ignorance as is peddled by Ryan. It’s like… playing a great game of tennis without trying; watching balls come wafting over to my side of the court like drunken butterflies…
Or perhaps it’s more like some lazy mental exercise, akin to riding an exercise bike while reading a magazine.
But alas, this has grown boring for me, so I can imagine it’s pretty dull for any readers of this thread.
I’ll stop now.
I’ll disect this post in the morning but let me say this…
It doesn’t mean we can’t invade, but if we’re going in to remove WMD that we gave Iraq 20 years before, who should we spare our outrage for?
The Us has a history of doing things that come back to bite us in the ass. Our outrage is that we keep making the same mistakes.
Osama bin laden was once our boy…
Saddam Hussein was once our boy…
Musharref of Pakisistan is currently our boy…
In many cases I’ve preferred the evil of doing nothing.
As a reader of this thread, I can say that you imagine correctly. This thread is getting boring at this point. Your last argument post was great, but after that it stopped being interesting.
Thank you, and thanks Club 33, too.
I do feel like I keep banging my head against a wall sometimes…
There keep being stores like [WASHINGTON, Jan 25 (IPS) - Despite the millions of dollars spent by the U.S. and other nations to improve their performance, Iraqi police still routinely abuse and often torture detainees, according to a report released Tuesday by Human Rights Watch (HRW)…
Methods of torture include routine beatings using cables, hosepipes and other implements; kicking, slapping, and punching; prolonged suspension from the wrists with hands tied behind the back; electric shocks to sensitive parts of the body, including the earlobes and genitals; and being kept blindfolded or handcuffed continuously over several days, according to the 93-page report.
Based on investigations carried out in Iraq between July and October last year, including interviews with 90 former prisoners, the report, ”The New Iraq? Torture and Ill-Treatment of Detainees in Iraqi Custody”, also found that arrests were frequently carried out without warrants on the basis of information provided by ”secret informants”.](http://ipsnews.net/new_nota.asp?idnews=27163)
Meshugenah world.
Trying to link my views on immigration to that on the situation of Iraq is a tenous link at best. It seems that I have to repeat ad nauseum how I changed my views about that particular topic, and I don’t really care anymore.
If the US is importing its own values of democracy, how come it has allowed major Islamist parties to enter the election?
Do so, I remember having a certain debate with you on another board about Iraq, and you cited that you would never reply to me again because of it. Strange eh?
What so bad about supporting the interim government, whats so bad about supporting elections, whats so bad about me wanting to support Iraqis who desire liberty?
What I’m pissed off is that you’re all here trying to portray this as ‘he lied, so therefore we can’t possibly create a democratic country there’
Do whatever you want, it just shows your willfull ignorance of people who actually think Iraqis have a fighting chance.
Well Einstein you seem to know so much about the use of language where I live, I can assure you it is what me and my friends do say. Jesus, I can’t believe you’d actually try and portray the language I use as some veiled, and thinly disguised attack on Americans.
?? Again I’m puzzled, supporting the US army and the Iraqi government in its efforts to clamp down insurgents and terrorists is somehow hateful? Did you know if we do defeat them we can withdraw and less Iraqis die as a result?
Short sighted?
You believe Iraqis are incapable of bringing about a democracy with our help, you regard the US as an imperialist aggressor, and large elements of the ‘resistance’ as somewhat legitimate and should be condoned, how am I to take this seriously?
You’re trying to tell me that “retard” is a common insult in the UK? You’re full of shit. It’s not. It is used in the States though by the same kind of wankers that call someone a mongo, spa, spakker or whatever other hateful insult based on mental and physical handicaps you can think of.
It is not a thinly disguised anything. It is a horrible insult which speaks volumes about the type of little fucker you are.
Let me try and be as succinct as possible here.
Uh because political parties are neccessary for democracy to work? It’s a good think that they’re letting all these parties participate, however I’m still very cynical of our motivations over there. Do you think that after all the trouble we’ve gone through, that we’re going to subtly be pulling strings to get who we want in power? I sure as hell do. I say that they will “disqualify” particular parties (or already have, I should say), and perhaps allow some that don’t have a chance of winning anything, but look nice by adding to a veneer of diversity. I’m sure there are people that will be more friendly to the US, so we’re behind the scenes pushing for them. We give them prime time at the press conferences, army protect to go campaign, or perhaps some additional money for more posters magically appears.
This isn’t about democracy, it’s simply a power play under it’s guise.
Nothing at all, supporting it is a good thing, but what you’re doing is hugging someone so hard that you’re killing them. It’s very important to support them, but doing it so blindly is counterproductive. I urge you to look at past history and be mindful that many bad things have been commited in the name of good. Be skeptical, and use critical thinking to weigh both sides of the issue, something I think you should try more of.
Yes, he fucking lied to us. Now I don’t know how things are in your neck of the woods, but where I’m from some motherfucker lies to you, his word is worth shit. Now, when something comes out of his mouth, I don’t know whether to believe it or not, because I’ll know he’ll tell a lie if he has to. Besides that, I really don’t like being lied to.
No it’s not, supported them is fine, let’s move along here.
It is essential for you to understand there is a very, very large likelyhood of a civil war right after we pull out. The reasons it will happen are beyond our means to fix them. The quick explanation is shites (pardon my spelling) and sunnis don’t like each other too much. There’s nothing we can do to make them get along, we can only leave and let them shoot it out.
I think the situation is so unbelievably fucked up that when one analyzes it from all sides, a pile of contradictory conclusions come to light. To briefly touch on the ones you mentioned.
I believe Iraqis are capable of bringing democracy with our help. I believe they are unable to sustain it once we leave. I also question the quality of democracy we’ve brought them. Is it possible that our system isn’t as easily transferred to other cultures as we’d like to think?
I don’t know if I regard the US as an imperialist aggressor, but I do know that most of the world does. I consider this a bad thing.
I wholeheartedly support the troops, but I think the resistance is justified in many ways. I think there are a lot of assholes sawing off heads, and I feel there are some people that are fighting for their culture, their heritage, and their very survival. What is most important is to look at this situation with as much clarity as possible. Being able to acknowledge the existence of fighters with legitimate gripes, and the existence of a bunch of terrorist assholes stirring up the shit pot is critical. These are just two of many different groups which all requiring different tactics in order to remedy the problem. Notice I don’t say “defeat” them, which implies some sort of winning or losing. Winning has nothing to do with it, it’s about solving problems.
I think we’re in agreement on some things, but we tend to look at the nuance a bit more, where you tend to be black and white. The problem is this situation is as far away from black and white as it gets, and looking at it that way does you no good.
In my area its common to say, so I say it asshole. I think you’ve a got a deficiency in reading too much into what I say as an insult.
Yeah yeah, pretty lame, anything else?
This is where we seperate in our views, I’d think the resistance would have alot more legitimacy if they didn’t frequently attack civilians, and provided a system where as it would be a pretty good counterweight to the democratic process in which the Coalition was founding.
Well, since theres no evidence of this, I’ll gladly say this isn’t happening. Parties aren’t allowed to be on the platform unless they have no militias and certain media outlets inciting attacks against the state and the US forces, which I believe is a good idea.
Then why would they even entertain the idea of the Iraqi communist party of entering the race
I know, do you think withdrawing early would be a disaster? Do you believe that our timetable should be drawn up to measure the sucess of Iraq forces, as opposed to leaving at a set date because its politically convienient?
But what he said shouldn’t tarnish the efforts the Iraqis and the Americans are all putting into making it work.
It would be in our best interests then to establish a democratic government and society in which the problems of ethnicity are blurred, or establish the ground for which a federalised Iraq would take shape.
I strongly believe though that the issue of Sunni and Shia has been overplayed, and is used as a tactic to divide Iraqis, terrorists like Al Zarqawi would love to see this happen and should be stopped at whatever cost.
I think a constitutional republic is applicable to any culture, it just needs time to be embedded into the society for it to work.
First off I did not say this. please don’t credit me with things I didn’t say. I’ve specifically steered clear of personal insults in my posts to you.
Moving on…
I agree that shooting civilians is stupid to their cause. I still believe however that the terrorists are the ones blowing up the civies, not the resistence. I will add that I doubt the resistence is going out of their way to spare the innocent. You see it as one problem with one solution, I see it as two problems with two different solutions.
And guess who gets to make the call if they qualify according to those vague rules? If you guessed the US you are correct!
They entertain it because the more diverse parties they add on, the more legitimate their little bullshit election looks.
Yes, I think it will be a disaster whether we pull out now or in 5 years or in 10. I think leaving now would be less disasterous then staying, because we seem to be the problem not the solution.
I really don’t think 250 billion and counting, 1,400 of ours gone, and 30,000 Iraqi civies was worth getting SH. What’s your cutoff Ryan? 500 billion and 10,000 soldiers dead? 200,000 civilians dead? At what threashold does the “price” of removing SH become to high? Mine has already passed.
I’d really prefer for us to focus inward and mind our business about a few things.
What if the Iraqi forces are never ready? Then what?
You’re familiar with the saying “easier said then done” right? That’s like saying, we should “just try harder to make Israelis and Palestinians get along”.
I don’t think it’s overplayed at all.
You can force a square peg into a round hole too, doesn’t mean you should.
My mistake, it was Yojimbo.
If the US found out that the elections they would carry without some certain guidelines, we’d be almost certainly back where we started before we invaded.
This is what I don’t get, the entire process of free elections is to have as many diverse parties as you can, thus validating nearly everyones differing opinons on society within an election.
Mine hasn’t because I know withdrawing before they’re ready will make it ten times worst, and yet again the administration will be blamed for ‘increasing the terrorism abroad’
The ‘Americas not the worlds policeman’ bullshit routine? Heard it before, last time it happened half a million died in Rwanda, and countless more in Bosnia. Its not an option for the US to mind its own business, it did that in the 90’s and was awoken by 9/11. Isolationism is dead and counter productive.
Then it’ll be a failure, and we’ll have to leave, but the situation will get worse, not better with tensions heightened dramatacally. I have confidence that we’ll eventually have them trained well, but where as some people say it will take months, I regard it more in terms of years.
Of course, but then I remember a quote from a President saying ‘we do things not because they are easy, but because they are hard’ that is one of those moments, and we must see it through.
I do, because if it were that bad, the Shia would of completely disregarded the non violent approach and would go after Sunni militants in revenge attacks.
The Islamic Front for Resistance says it will not target the elections, voters, or polling stations.
I didn’t cite, I stated.
You are one of the most foolish and frustrating posters on the Dope. And yes, I should not have said I would never respond to you again, I should simply have said that talking with you is like a cross between trying to nail jello to the wall and trying to drive a nail into my forehead. I will most likely not respond to you much in the future, but when your unbound ignorance and stupidity rear their ugly heads, I will most likely respond from time to time.
Cats need to sharpen their claws after all.
Rephrase: Why do you all hate America and Freedom so much?
Counterpoint: Maybe we love freedom as much as you, we just want accountability and pragmatism, maybe we want this war to be prosecuted correctly and the people running this war have a dismal track record which you have the ability to both notice and overlook in the same breath.
What a lovely strawman!
Maybe the lies play into the fact that this invasion is illegitimate, and thus, lowers our support in the entire global community.
Maybe the reason we can’t ‘create’ anything there is that we’re running one of the sloppiest military campaigns in a long time?
This is probably the funniest thing you’ve ever said.
Unfortunately, for you, it’s funny because you’re stupid.
How, pray tell, is it ‘wilfully ignorant’ to not pay more attention to people who think the Iraqis have a ‘fighting chance’, whatever the hell that means. Personally, I think it means that they’re going to get a chance to do a whole lot of fighting, but hey… evidently I’m being ‘wilfully ignorant’ by not taking your third-hand opinions as a primary source.
Possibly hateful, definitely stupid.
If you don’t want to pay attention to the systemic nature of our failure, you will remain Blind to the problems.
Moreoever, stop using the phrase “Iraqi Government”.
As of yet there is no Iraqi Government, there is an interim government which we helped set up. Do not obfuscate.
Wait to see what happens with these elections, and how many Iraqis view the results as legitimate.
You are to take it seriously by not being a blithering idiot?
A country which is on the edge of civil war may very well not be able to achieve ‘democracy’ without substantial outside help or a substantial civil war.
We have invaded their country, and stay in it, without the authorization of their people. Idealogues like you do not care that we are operating in violation of the will of the people, even though you claim you’re doing this for them. And, yes, attempting to export western style government, at gunpoint, on a population that wants you to leave is Imperialistic.
What block exists in your mangled mind that makes you think it’s okay to use force to install a democracy in a country that wants you to leave? Don’t you understand that they want us gone even though they think it will lead to more violence?. By what fucking right do you claim we can keep our troops there when they want us to go? Imperialist stooge.
Oh, and, some of the insurgents are indeed morally justified in trying to expell foreign agressors. Some of them are not justified for targeting civilians. The two groups are not the same, however. But you can’t ‘take this seriously’, because reality gets in the way of your bullshit.
Oh, and by the way, it’s not wacko-pinko-commie-pacifists who’re saying that our actions have increased global terrorism It’s the CIA
Looks like we’re doing good cop/bad cop here Finn.
No problem, double threat. 