Good, it shut your ridiculous mouth from spewing anymore crap about how we’re baby roasting imperialistic war mongers across my way. Thanks for the favour, now piss off.
No, I just wonder why theres so much hostility to a government we’ve set up as a halfway point.
I’ve never overlooked it, I believe the situation was terrible from the start, the saking of Jay Garner one of the biggest mistakes and replacing him with a yes man from Washington a disaster. I agree that we have to set a course in which we help the Iraqis with minimum difficulty, this does not translate into withdrawing prematurely, or selling the Iraqis short of what we commit to them.
We’ve created a process in which the Iraqis can choose what type of government they want themselves, hardly sloppy.
Well, the fact that people are ready to write them off before they’ve even started the electorial process and the implementation of the Constitution which will be ratified, ignoring the facts on the ground. I can sometimes be passionate in my descriptions, I apologise if it offended you as such
‘Most Iraqi politicians quite specifically say they would welcome a continued American presence subject to a Status of Forces Agreement such as the Pentagon retains with countries like Turkey, South Korea, the Philippines, and Germany. The issue is less American troop presence than respect.’
‘While news-agency stringers can always find an Iraqi who will play to the cameras and demand the Yankees go home, the majority want the Americans to stay. Most pundits and academics who suggest the Iraqis will demand an immediate withdrawal have likely never been to Iraq and are more often than not voicing their own prejudices or basing their informed comment on rote repetition of Arabic newspapers’
Yes, because I’m sure the Iraqi people could somehow authorise an invasion whilst under the rule of Saddam Hussein.
Western style government? Define ‘Western style government’ are these ‘Western’ values within a representative republic somehow antithesis to the people of Iraq? This is no more imperialistic than the occupation of Japan. Try and slowly accept the US government isn’t the root of all evil.
This amuses me, because we’re giving the Iraqis the chance to elect a government to eventually ask us to leave, there has to be some support of us being there otherwise the position we would be in would be untenable. The fact the Iraqis are heading with elections, embracing the freedoms we’ve helped bring about, is testimony in them at least needing us to help with the final challanges that lay ahead.
‘While Iraqis want to reclaim their highways, they recognize the security function American troops play. Far more Iraqis have died in terrorist violence than Americans. While news-agency stringers can always find an Iraqi who will play to the cameras and demand the Yankees go home, the majority want the Americans to stay. Most pundits and academics who suggest the Iraqis will demand an immediate withdrawal have likely never been to Iraq and are more often than not voicing their own prejudices or basing their informed comment on rote repetition of Arabic newspapers.’
Yes of course :rolleyes: did you even see the link in the last post to Worldeater? The insurgents are scum, and need to be eradicated, an understanding of their situation will bring about their defeat, but their ideologies and motives aren’t morally justified, neither is their ‘resistance’ Most of the resistance is bound into the concept of honour within Arab society and the desire for revenge, they’ll understand eventually that this leads nowhere.
The desperation of terrorism will show an increase in the devastation of attacks, as they have their backs to the wall. Remember the last days of the Second World war were the bloodiest. We’ll prevail
Obviously the elections need guidelines, the point is they’ve been quietly composed to benefit the US (we can reject candidates based on vague criteria), not neccessarily the Iraqis. Of course we’re going to subtly nudge things to go our way, you think we’re in this for nothing?
As far as being free, what if they have their election and tell us to get the fuck out, right now? IIRC Condi Rice said we wouldn’t leave. If they tell us to leave and we don’t, then they’re not really that free right?
The CIA has already stated the war has increased the potential for global terrorism. SH was an asshole don’t get me wrong, and if we could have gotten rid of him quickly and cheaply I would have said “yeah sure why not?” But you get to a point where you say “shit this wasn’t really worth it, look at what this is costing us, look at how many fucking people are getting killed”. I’m really curious about where your threshold lies in this regard. In a year or two from now when it’s 400 billion, 2500 dead soldiers, and 50,000 dead civilians, will you say we might have been better off staying out of it? How about 5 years from now?
Do you know why OBL his us on 9/11? According to him it’s because we had troops in Saudi Arabia, home of the holiest place in all Islam. Did you know that? There’s the reason behing 9/11
Well no shit we know it will get worse. We’re annoyed at Bush for putting us in this crappy no win situation. The military campaign has totally sucked too, that hasn’t helped.
Yes, and the Iraqis don’t want us there for weeks, let alone years.
He has said a lot of things, some lies, some truths.
The news I’m watching right now is telling me that a curfew is now in effect, the airports are closed, and the borders are sealed. How free can you get?
They’re also saying that the mood is jubilant. Tell me again about the liberal media?
I’m sorry, World Eater, even as I hit submit I realized it might sound like I was picking at you. It was just that your sentence gave me a convenient jumping off point.
My hostility is reserved only for the Bush admin, the assholes who got us into this.
It’s been two years, large chunks of the country remain unsecured, and civilians are getting blown to pieces, daily, by suicide bombers. I don’t know if you kept up with the pre invasion rhetoric, but the Bush people predicted a few months and US loses in the dozens. Cheney and others have recently admitted that they bungled the military operation.
That’s not what the CIA said, go read the link. They said that a new generation of terrorists will be created by this conflict. THE CIA IS SAYING THIS!
Lastly, whether they’re getting “bolder” or “desperate” I could care less. At the end of the day you can use whatever adjective you choose, the result is the same, increased terror attacks.
The war is most certainly imperialistic, the Bush Regime are warmongers, but I’ve never made any claims that we’re roasting babies. Try to keep your mealy and mushy mind in check. Then again, I suppose it’s not much of a surprise that your hyperbole is totally out of joint with reality, so’s your normal mode of thought.
Besides spunky, between the two of us, who do you figure more Dopers would figure is a ridiculous little fool? And, by the way, you racist fuck, even when you ‘recanted’ about muslims in your country, you were still a racist about it. Not that this is germane to the point at hand, simply elaborating on the fact that you’re racist pondscum.
A government that we’ve set up.
Try to drain the excess fluid from your skull and realize what this means.
Again, wonderful willful ignorance you propaganda spouting mouthpiece.
You point to them having an intention to have elections. Whee!
Now how about not getting electricity and water on for months upon months? Sloppy, naw… the past is erased in the Ryanverse because someone wants to hold elections.
Fucking tool.
Hey moron, you and your mistaken cronies aren’t ‘facts on the ground.’
I can safely ignore your unjustified optimism because the elections haven’t even happened yet. Schmuck.
Hrm, I wonder… your cite uses… how many statistics, how many polls? Well it meantions one or two in passing, but how many are given with hard data? Oh, none…
Let’s see… he claims that Iraqis want something and yet, I’ve given you polls where they say the exact opposite. Hrmm… Iraqis telling us they want one thing, idiot telling us that they want another. Who to believe? Oh, choices, choices!
By the way, from your own cite
Nawwwwwwwwwww. That sure aint imperialism. It’s, um… quick, what’s the word for that in the Ryanverse?
No you imperialistic coward, they want us gone now. Currently. Today.
["For example, while Cheney noted that when asked what kind of government they would like, Iraqis chose “the U.S. . . . hands down,” in fact, the results of the poll are actually quite different. Twenty-three percent of Iraqis say that they would like to model their new government after the U.S.; 17.5 percent would like their model to be Saudi Arabia; 12 percent say Syria, 7 percent say Egypt and 37 percent say “none of the above.” That’s hardly “winning hands down.”
When given the choice as to whether they “would like to see the American and British forces leave Iraq in six months, one year, or two years,” 31.5 percent of Iraqis say these forces should leave in six months; 34 percent say a year, and only 25 percent say two or more years. So while technically Cheney might say that “over 60 percent [actually 59 percent] . . . want the U.S. to stay at least another year,” an equally correct observation would be that 65.5 percent want the U.S. and Britain to leave in one year or less.
Other numbers found in the poll go further to dampen the vice president’s and the AEI’s rosy interpretations. For example, when asked if “democracy can work well in Iraq,” 51 percent said “no; it is a Western way of doing things and will not work here.”
And attitudes toward the U.S. were not positive. When asked whether over the next five years, they felt that the “U.S. would help or hurt Iraq,” 50 percent said that the U.S. would hurt Iraq, while only 35.5 percent felt the U.S. would help the country. On the other hand, 61 percent of Iraqis felt that Saudi Arabia would help Iraq in the next five years, as opposed to only 7.5 percent who felt Saudi Arabia would hurt their country. Half felt that the United Nations would help Iraq, while 18.5 percent felt it would hurt. Iran’s rating was very close to the United State’s, with 53.5 percent of Iraqis saying Iran would hurt them in the next five years, while only 21.5 percent felt that Iran might help them."](http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/17021/)
The kind that Iraqis reject? Look at the data I’ve posted above. Or you could’ve done your own research so your conclusions could be informed rather than propaganda.
Japan attacked us, we had global support, the terms of the end of the war included a change in how bussiness was done. In this case, we just rolled into Iraq and imposed our will upon people who didn’t want it. Not equal.
Hey, asshole, I love my country and would never claim such a thing, you vile, vile idealogue. I would, however, make the point that the United States has done a great many bad things on the world stage, and we need to stop doing them.
No, your wacked out imperialistic sentiments aside, we don’t need a government to tell us what to do, the people themselves have spoken. Shame on you for not listening to them.
You really are profoundly stupid.
Yes, there is ‘some support’, there is also ‘some support’ for Al Queda. ‘Some support’ does not a mandate make.
And, you say they’re heading into elections, whee! Does this mean jack shit? Let’s see how the actual elections go, if there’s civil war following them, before you celebrate their sucess.
And, how on earth do elections mean they need specificaly US troops there? I must’ve missed the ‘making shit up’ logic course when I was in college.
No, I did not see a single cite you posted in which the overall stastical distribution of the insurgents is broken down. You have zero data to support your claims.
Your attempts to make the insurgents fallaciously fungible are stupid. Quit it.
Cite for any of your lies about the character of the entire insurgency?
I thought as much.
Oooh, a smiley! Now I know that we’ll prevail!
Here’s a challenge for you, you rancid imperialist.
Move to Bagdad. Tomorrow. Move to Falujah. Move to any part of Iraq that isn’t under iron US military control. Put your life on the line, rather than killing other people over your ideology.
But hey, as long as you can find a government who’ll do bussiness with you, it’s cool! Just so you know, we tried that once with the Shah. That turned out peachy, didn’t it?
Speaking of hard instead of easy, why’d we invade Iraq instead of a nation which has WMD and has stated they’ll use them against us, like North Korea… or a nation with terrorist ties that’ve hurt us many times before, like Saudi Arabia? Or how about nations which abuse their own people, like The Sudan?
racism is predujice against a race. I talked about culture, I was wrong about it, case closed.
So because I made remarks like this makes me unable to show support for the US led Coalition in Iraq? I don’t think so.
We set up a government in Afghanistan, I don’t see how this is bad when we talk in relation of Iraq.
Oh didn’t those essential services get sabotaged by that ‘resistance’ you were talking about? Yeah, real heroic :rolleyes:
This is applicable to you also.
Its ok just 3 more days to go.
And polls mean shit, because they’re proven to be inaccurate?
Why should I believe what you’re saying when you’re willfully biased against anything I put up?
Al Sadr was a militaman who is one of Americas biggest opponents, yet even he is looking at the elections as something as a positive step forward.
'Even Sheik al-Sadr, who led an uprising against the U.S.-led coalition and originally opposed the elections, now appears to be withholding judgment. ’
That would be ignorance of the situation around them, not intentional imperialism, since there have been many a fuckups in Iraq, I hardly suspect them of doing it on purpose.
They want us away from the cities and places where they can get caught in the crossfire, I sympathise with that, but they don’t want us out completely. I bet you money that once Iraqi security forces are out in full force, the resentment will subside.
I wonder where that poll was taken in Iraq, because that site seems to be completely anti war to the point they’d rather see it implode than side with the US government.
I hardly suspect the Japanese wanted our will imposed on them, as you say, when we occupied that country.
I don’t think so, I think what good its done outweights the bad by far.
Don’t those people need a government to represent them dumbass? Or would you be happy for a couple of roving militias tell us to get the hell out?
People do and want stupid things, but elected officials, who see the predicament, usually know better, for us to leave right now would ensure the collapse of the Iraqi government, the destruction of the state, genocide of either Sunnis or Kurds (yet again) and the amount of terrorism actually increase to a level unthinkable beforehand.
You seem to think I’m naive and a dumbass for actually thinking its a good idea for the US Coalition to remain in Iraq, regardless of the violence.
You seem to have this strange optimism if the US left, and somehow would see levels of violence go down, even though the biggest terrorist group in Iraq, which would remain there and be even more bolder now that its defeated a superpower would now be fighting for control.
Its better the resentment than to see future generations of Iraqis even more pissed at us for leaving them to face such evil on their own. You can call me whatever you want, I really don’t care I don’t see how us telling Iraqis ‘fuck it we can’t take it anymore’ will allieviate the situation.
Yeah, same applies with withdrawal.
I can’t wait to see the look on your face when this actually doesn’t happen, considering Al Sistanis electoral list involves 30 Sunni candidates, and that countless parties have tried to be as broad based in their support as much as possible, yeah, some basis for civil war there? I don’t think so.
Well you know, those ‘understandable people’ who are a lil’ angry with the US and its allies, you know have to stop those pesky terrorists from killing Iraqis for speaking their minds, and deciding who they want to represent them.
There are 200,000 insurgents, which is itself a wild estimate, 90% within the Sunni populated areas, the population of Iraq is 28 million, I’d hardly say they were representative of the Iraqis (even Sunnis who are numbered to be 5million) views on the occupation or anything in general. Most militants are from the Sunni areas of Iraq, near the centre.
‘Arab pride, local and transnational Islamic fundamentalism, and tribal loyalties cultivated by ousted president Saddam Hussein.’
All of which we should fight against to ensure the Iraqis have the best chance of defeating them politically as well.
ok, I’ll move to Basra, under the Iron military control of the British :rolleyes:
Yeah yeah, I seem to remember the US doing business with Japan, which ended up investing substantially within the economy and becoming the 2nd largest economy in the world, but somehow that had an elected government too!
Hmmmm…for the record, if I lived under an Orwellian terror regime where I was afraid to speak my opinion in whispers for fear some neighbor connected to the government would tell on me…a government for which it was policy…policy!.. to have my right hand removed for little reason or none or watch my daughter being raped as I sat strapped to a chair as punishment for dissent, and if the dictator’s son treated the university’s co-ed program as his personal whorehouse and occassionally killed his date in the morning, and if whole swaths of the citizendry were undergoing systematic genoicide because they weren’t…in Iraq it was Sunni Arab but for the sake of this analogy I’ll say…White Protestant enough, then I would not care if Saddam Hussein himself rolled tanks down my street if within 22 months he set up free elections, immediately permitted civil discourse and worked to repair my collapsing infrastructure.
And if any red-blooded American took a pot-shot at my liberators I blow his worthless head off.
