Goddamn, you lefties think ruling by poll is a form of gov’t. The Iraqis have not ‘already spoken’; in a bit less then a day, they will be voting to set the course for the future of Iraq. Does that get through your skull, the difference between ‘polls’ and ‘votes’?
Ya, I snipped the whole of your utter bullshit ‘cite’. Did you even read it? Did you see the endearing, ‘Workers of the world, unite!’ splashed along the top? Or maybe this, on their front page:
You toolbag. What the hell is going through your mind when you cite from there?
Goddamn boy, there you go with the ‘polls as a form of governing’ bullshit. Tomorrow, they will have elections. It has been publically stated that if the new gov’t wants the US to leave, the US will leave. Some poll that you are fond of waving around does not equal the legitmate voice of the people. Even you guys are bright enough to figure that out, right?
And yes, it will take some time to go from the elections tomorrow to a new gov’t, but such is life.
Really fetishing on that ‘rule by polls’ bit, aren’t you?
Heh, it is in this late hour that you start to place faith in CIA reports? Regardless, it was just that: A single report.
Ya. Like how they stopped the festivities in Rawanda. Hell, it took how many years of blue helmets standing around before the party settled down in the fmr.Yugoslavia? The UN doesn’t have a magic wand, nor does it have a enviable record.
Maybe because many ‘Western’ powers stated that they won’t be sending troops to Iraq? I know, I know, you think the UN will wave it’s magic wand and poof! The French and Germans will be racing in, but sadly, the real world doesn’t work like that.
France does qualify as a ‘Western’ power, in case you were wondering.
- I’m not on the left.
- No.
Congrats Brutus, you have the courage to call a spade a fucking shovel. Brilliant.
I expected better of you. Is the information unture, or does the cite have an agenda that you disagree with? In case you’re wondering The information is true The information is true The information is true
Again, I expected that someone like you, Brutus wouldn’t resort to ad hominems instead of making a logical argument. The information is true, what does it matter who says it?
That Dopers can recognize an ad hominem when they see it, and care more about truth than packaging?
Goddamn son, there you go ignoring the will of the people because they’re not yet set up a government.
Multiple polls. And, sorry buckaroo, when the people speak, they speak. A poll that is properly conducted with a representative sample size provides information on a greater populace.
Let’s see if there’s a civil war in the next 12 months, then we’ll talk about how sucessful the government is.
Yeah, I have this fetish where I think we should listen to a people before forcing them at gunpoint to do things our way. I’m a nut, I know.
Actually, the CIA told Bush that it couldn’t find any hard evidence of WMD’s. His regime simply cherry-picked the intel until he had a case. In fact, the CIA reluctance to credit Chalabi and inability to find any evidence is why Rumsfeld created the OSP.
And, you want another report? Ok.
IISS agrees
No, the UN doesn’t have a perfect record. But the Iraqis hate the Americans, and not the UN. That’s a pretty good start right there.
Maybe that’s because the war was fought on trumped up charges that they knew were lies? Maybe because Bush engaged in blatant cronyism and didn’t allow the global community to bid on reconstruction?
I am sure, however, that if we stopped acting like the global bully and apologized for waging this unjust war, made a mea culpa before the UN, set things right with reconstruction bidding and contracts, etc… you’d find that the entire world has a vested interest in the stability of Iraq, and they’d help.
No magic wand. But yes, France and Germany most likely would help because the entire world realizes that Iraq has become a powder keg. And it is now in their best interest to help. Pragmatism, root of all global politics.
Ya don’t say?
Maybe that was the point of what I wrote, that US involvement might be exluded but western involvement would not?
Nawwwwwwwwwwww. I must think france is in the eastern hemisphere. That’s the ticket.
Anyone feel like taking a stab at my earlier question?
The problem is that all evidence is showing that they can’t police the country now, and they may never be able to control it at a level required to maintan peace. First we’re told 6 months, then a year, now it may be several years. Next week it may be ten years. Have you read the numerous cites we’ve provided that our generals are saying “the training is going really shitty”?
Hell, the 150,000 troops from the most modern military in the history of the world with global logistical support, and bleeding edge technology can barely control Iraq. How the hell is some army built in 12 months with 1/1000 of the resources going to hold the peace?
What? I said the insurgents/terroristst/liberators whatever were sabotaging power stations, you flatly denied that was the case and said it was all the US fault, I gave you a cite to prove it wasn’t, and you call it nitpicking? Given the fact that the Iraqi power grid has to accomodate the needs of all its citizens power generation for all the country will be low.
Zogby gets election results wrong
Yes, and when have I denied that? I also stated that some will want us to stay, to ensure that the country doesn’t decend into civil war and to protect the people from revenge attacks, all which is likely that would happen once we left completely
And? Whats this western style government you’re talking about, where does it say that a culture cannot possibly have a representative government, with a functioning Parliament etc
Don’t you get windbag? That if they have no government, there is no order whatsoever within the country? If there is no government in place, who will represent their views without them having to turn to the barrel of a gun to get their voice heard?
Regardless you’re blind to the fact that the countrys leading cleric endorsed the government structure, its laws and the elections, goes against the fact you think they don’t want a ‘Western style’ government. If they have a ‘Western’ style government rammed down their throats, then where does that leave the Afghans?
Of course they want us to leave, but like I said people sometimes don’t always decide whats best for them, and this is one of those situations, we’ll leave in due time, but it would be foolhardy to do this just because of that consensus. I’m sure there were plenty of Japanese who wanted the Americans off their soil, but knew it was in their best interest to work with them, not against them.
I really don’t know why you’re calling me an ideologue, but if thats what I get for being happy Iraqis have their freedom, their liberty, and are fighting hard against the insurgents and terrorists to retain it, then call me whatever you want. 
That link is the most blatantly anti war site I’ve ever seen, its not even hid its socialist tendencies, nice link, bullshit, but nice.
Taliban becoming less of a problem
? Ok, so I hate the Saddam regime, and am glad its gone, I support the Coalitions efforts to establish a democratic government in Iraq, and that even though they want us gone, I’m sure alot would regard us having to train their security forces and military apparatus, a top priority. Education of Iraqis in the ideas of democracy, freedom of expression freedom of thought, all need to be established so that they not go down the path of totalinarianism yet again.
I say this, and you immediately regard me as facist, well excuse me, but like I’ve said, humans don’t usually like anarchy, they like order and freedom. If this makes me a ‘disgusting warm festering etc’ like you’ve describe, then I’ll gladly be one
They have an internationally recognised Iraqi interim Government. I keep repeating that even though they want us gone, I think that a large proportion of them would want us to leave them with a government and society they can actually defend, a large proportion would rather work with us to see us leave than get an Ak 47 and run into the streets, don’t you think?
You just don’t understand do you, if there is this mass support of us leaving, then why isn’t there the kind of rebellions we’re seeing on par with the NVA and Vietcong? Because they know that working with us is the best way for us to leave, I’ve never denied this, but I also know that Iraqis in the government will regard a withdrawal from Iraq as a disaster if implemented right now.
Not all Iraqis are unwilling, I know this just from the amount who’ve joined the police and security services, the government and who have gone to the polling booths. You wouldn’t know honour if it hit you in the face.
What you’re talking about is an opinion, not fact, although I don’t deny terrorism has gotten worse, its an opinion from that government department.
I keep telling you, the UN has got about as much legitimacy as the US in that country, or in the Sunni dominated parts, where they’ll be needed most. The UN has been next to useless in preventing ethnic slaughter and genocide, what makes you think that any country would want to send contingents to Iraq knowing how hard it was for the worlds superpower to maintain order and control?
Much like the countless insults you’ve tried to throw at me.
Ok, lesson 101
3 distinct ethnic groups, blurred lines on ethnic boundaries, mixed marriages etc
Lack of funding or training for force which protects these three groups from sectarian violence and exteremists = Balkanised Iraq.
The situation would be far worse without US and UK troops in Iraq to police and conduct counter-insurgency campaigns.
America moving out of the way would result in the collapse of Iraq. Its simply not an option.
Yeah, but its also common sense not to make a situation more fucked up than it already is.
Well, you’ve just advocated the US withdrawing from Iraq, now you’re saying they should come back as UN peacekeepers? France and Germany are going to send peacekeepers to the new Balkanised Iraq? You actually think they’ll be able to quell the violence of a dozen or so new ‘Islamic Emirates’ Because I certainly don’t think so.
I don’t think it can totally disregard the anti-US feeling, so something has to be done on a governmental level, though long-term stability is the only realistic way I can see the US leaving. Governments work in a way in what is good for the people long term, not some bangwagon for short term gain. You don’t seem to understand this.
Look, if you’d get it through you’re brain, Shias are Arabs, and Sunnis are Arabs, they both adhere to the loyalty pride honour crap, blood feuds, and Islamic piousness, I think personally this contributes alot to the insurgency, fighting for lost pride can only be paid in American blood for some.
I’m not even too sure whether it can even be called a ‘national liberation’ war in the traditional sense. There’re too many groups and i’m not too sure how many of them are just bandits out for personal profit, which is I think the main source of general security problems.
I’d think the characteristics of those groups would be awfully similar. With some exceptions, like Zarqawi.
Yes, because somehow I don’t know the Shia follow Imam Ali Hussein who was assasinated do I? Or that Najaf is a holy site for Shias. Or how Sunnis follow the direct decendants of Mohammed, and not the Son in law. Or how fanatics in the Sunni sect see them as apostates. Ethnicity is fundamental to Iraqs situation, for this state to survive, they must show tolerance towards each other, and unity, thankfully, both of them even in this bad situation are showing that.
Your maturity for these types of situations is astounding
What you mean they don’t want liberal democracy with the civil rights that are upheld in such a system? Afterall western democracies are merely liberal democracies, which hold civil rights to be important as a contrast, the DPRK claims to be a democracy, which, technically it is, only a totalitarian form there of democracy only means rule by the masses, so any system that claims to represent them, can be called a ‘democracy’ of sorts. Western democracy is just another way of saying ‘liberal’ democracy.
Well if you want something other than Democracy, or me to support Saddam, I’ll humour you if you want
I don’t give a shit if it’s the pope blowing up the power stations. Our inability to PROTECT them is our failure. Here’s a situation where I see two bad things going on. Look at it from both sides for chrissake.
- Insurgent assholes blowing up the stations = bad
- Us military unable to protect the damn stations = bad
Looks like destroying power stations is a pretty popular move, both sides have done it.
Willl you please acknowledge that this cuts both ways? In fact the bolded part can be applied to either the Iraqis, or the US.
This is why the US is needed in Iraq, to train up an Army. I believe its going to take 5 years before a fully fledged army is formed. By recruiting and training more Iraqis, you decrease unemployment and might be able to make more people support what the govt’s doing, also taken into account that people would be more ready to defend a government they’ve chosen themselves, taking some wind out of an insurgency, also taking into account the newly elected almost certain effort to get insurgent movements to lay down their arms though negotiation. Thats one thing the US will have to get used to.
For the Iraqi government to do any of this, it has to take a neutral position to American involvement, to gain legitimacy from at least a large portion of the country.
Perhaps you will explain to your ignorant American cousins what, precisely, a “neutral” position would be?
Neither pro American or anti American, doesn’t take a genius Einstein.
Silliest damn thing I’ve heard. Lately.
And whys that silly, shouldn’t that be a desired outcome? A government which is neither both of the extremes, and takes the reality of the situation into account?
See that Bradley over there?
Yeah, the one parked on your kid’s head.
Just think of it as a rock or a tree.
Those Americans! They roasted that kid and ate him with their fellow Zionist compatriots! They used his blood to make pastry! The Americans are working with the evil Zionists to get all the oil to fuel their facist imperialistic war machine bent on eradicating all Muslims from the planet, then after they’ve gone, they’ll populate our Arabian lands with Homosexuals!
It’s war. Shit happens. By what magic do you intend to make the Iraqi’s not notice that shit happens around Americans?
Shit happens, mostly in close proximity to assholes. A coincidence?
It’s silly because it’s unrealistic.
Speaking of reality, I feel our views are closer to it then yours.
A magic wand of course.
I don’t think so, if the Americans are that desperate for an improvement of the security situation and legimitacy of the new government, they’ll have to adopt that approach it would be taking. Neutral doesn’t mean Anti-American, it just means it’ll be able to act somewhat independently.
Not really, insurgents tend to be of the asshole type
I’m not following you here, what are specifically suggesting?
Well an Iraqi government which took a neutral stance towards the Americans and domestic opposition would foster at least some legitimacy in the eyes of the majority in Iraq. It worth a shot considering any Iraqi government will lose out if considered to be on the side of any of the extremes.