A pitting of Liberal and the Mods that let it happen.

[What_Exit]

Liberal, I did not expect this thread to turn to religion, but certain brain injuries do make people find religion or lose religion. How does this reconcile to your position that there is no choice in having faith?

Are there not many people each year who seek to discover God through spiritual means and reading? Are there not also many people who grow up in a faith, hold the faith but then as they get older start to question the hundreds of nagging little inconsistencies and loose their faith along the way.

I agree that having faith is far from a choice like picking which brand of cereal to buy. However, I do not see it as any less of a choice for many people than what sports team to root for.

I was indoctrinated into a Roman Catholic, Yankee and NY Giants fan family. I left the RCC due to questions about the church that led to question about God himself. I gladly stood by my Yanks and I suffered through a childhood of horrible play by the Giants. I was then rewarded in the eighties. I have a friend that grew up in very similar circumstance and also left the church, chose to root for the RedSox and Cowboys as some form of protest against his pop. (And all reasonable logic and decency )

I then have a friend that left the RCC, became a loud and obnoxious atheist similar to **PRR ** and then found new faith with the Unitarians.

These all sound a lot like choices to me, many different choices for different reasons.

Jim

[Liberal]

@What Exit?

Liberal, I did not expect this thread to turn to religion, but certain brain injuries do make people find religion or lose religion. How does this reconcile to your position that there is no choice in having faith?

Even granting the premise, I think it supports the position, unless their brain injury was deliberate.

Are there not many people each year who seek to discover God through spiritual means and reading? Are there not also many people who grow up in a faith, hold the faith but then as they get older start to question the hundreds of nagging little inconsistencies and loose their faith along the way.

Just to be clear, I haven’t ever said that people can’t find or lose faith, so I’m not sure where this is going. I found faith.

I agree that having faith is far from a choice like picking which brand of cereal to buy. However, I do not see it as any less of a choice for many people than what sports team to root for.

Well, there’s an intellectual belief, and then there’s a heartfelt faith. I can choose whom to marry, but not whom to fall in love with.

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@Liberal

Well, there’s an intellectual belief, and then there’s a heartfelt faith. I can choose whom to marry, but not whom to fall in love with.

And that gets to the heart of it. The semantic distinction is whether you interpret ‘believe’ in an intellectual sense, as in ‘ok, I buy that’, or whether you think of it in the realm of feeling.

People who are saying it is a ‘choice’ to believe mean that people can choose from the intellectual options and decide that the arguments for faith are plausible. That is not the same as feeling the faith in your soul.

I had a pal I hung around with for a while. To all comers, we were buds. We did stuff together, called each other (sometimes daily) and commisserated or cheered each other when the occasion arose. However I never did grow fond of her in any way and when we fell away from our previous habits of spending time together, I felt no loss. There are other people I’ve met and felt fondness for and warmth towards that continue to this day whether or not we are in contact. You can’t create that. Similarly, you can’t manufacture faith that originates in the heart (metaphorically, you pickers of nits).

[tomndebb]

@Terrifel

2. tomndebb = tumult among people

Is there a reason you keep dragging my name into this silliness?

[Noone_Special]

@tomndebb

Is there a reason you keep dragging my name into this silliness?

I suspect (s)he’ll be willing to stop doing it if you offer him/her money…

[What_Exit]

@tomndebb

Is there a reason you keep dragging my name into this silliness?

Can I suggest that it is because it is well know that you set *PRR ** off with your incredible anti-atheist Bias?

How did you forget that already?

***Tom ** the Jack Booted slayers of Atheists. *

---

**Liberal ** and Quiddity, it looks like we are at an impass. **Frank ** and I both see choice where you see only I think Faith or no Faith.

Jim

• Just to completely clarify, I hope you know that I think he was wrong about that accusation.

[wring]

@Noone Special

I suspect (s)he’ll be willing to stop doing it if you offer him/her money…

I got a penny and a piece of lint if it would help.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Liberal

I’ve set one and only one condition: that he admit that he cannot “choose” to have faith in God, and that his claim to the contrary was irrational. If he chooses to get his money and come back under that condition, then I will defend him from any and all who attack him. You few are having a lot of fun at our expense, and that’s okay. No big deal. But he and I have not taken this lightly. Whatever you may think about what we’re doing is irrelevant. It is therefore better that you just stick to razzing and crafting limericks. (Though none of you will ever top Xeno.)

Well, I don’t think I’ve been having any fun at your expense, and neither have I crafted any limericks. Nor do I think what you’re doing is irrelevant. And really, most people here are having fun at your expense. Most people here are debating the ethics of your behavior.

[Lemur866]

@Captain Amazing

And really, most people here are having fun at your expense. Most people here are debating the ethics of your behavior.

I know this was a typo, but actually it’s true. I would guess 51+% are having fun at Liberal’s expense, and at the same time 51+% are debating the ethics of your behavior. The sets are not exclusive.

[What_Exit]

@Captain Amazing

Well, I don’t think I’ve been having any fun at your expense, and neither have I crafted any limericks. Nor do I think what you’re doing is irrelevant. And really, most people here are having fun at your expense. Most people here are debating the ethics of your behavior.

I think you left a not out of the second to last sentence, based on your final very
important sentence.

Most people here are debating the ethics of your behavior.

Thank you for pointing out the distinction. I think it is a rather important one.

Jim

[Liberal]

Well, you think it’s an important distinction, and Lemur866 thinks they are not mutually exclusive. I’ve often found that, when someone makes a claim about “most people” in a thread, it just means “people who agree with me”. Unless your and Bryan’s posts (as of this writing) count as 98 different people. And if so, I get to count myself and Quiddity as at least 62.

As to the ethics of our behavior. We are two (three, if you count Tris) consenting adults who entered a voluntary transaction upon our own volition. If that bothers you, then I suggest you look at your own life. I bet you’ll find plenty there to keep you busy.

[Contrapuntal]

@Liberal

As to the ethics of our behavior. We are two (three, if you count Tris) consenting adults who entered a voluntary transaction upon our own volition. If that bothers you, then I suggest you look at your own life. I bet you’ll find plenty there to keep you busy.

Well, it would interfere with his role of Self Appointed Busybody of the Intraweb. Man’s gotta make his choices.

[Autolycus]

Stop the thread, I want to get off.

[Frank]

@Liberal

Yeah, you keep saying that. Back it up. Choose to believe right now. Choose to put your faith in God, to rely on Him and cling to Him. Just go ahead. After all, once you’ve proved your point, you can turn it right back off, right?

I’ve already done that, Liberal, as if your nonsensical proposition would prove anything. Back in my late teens, early twenties, I was drawn into a couple of different Christian groups. I chose to join them - I read, studied, prayed, the whole nine yards. Then I chose to leave them.

It is the limbic system. But it proves nothing:

Why is the revealed truth of such transcendent experiences in any way “inferior” to the more mundane truths that we scientists dabble in? Indeed, if you are tempted to jump to this conclusion, just bear in mind that one could use exactly the same evidence — the involvement of the temporal lobes in religion — to argue for, rather than against, the existence of God. — VS Ramachandran, MD, PhD, Phantoms in the Brain, “God and the Limbic System”, pp. 184-185

Intelligent Design?

[Frank]

@Quiddity Glomfuster

People who are saying it is a ‘choice’ to believe mean that people can choose from the intellectual options and decide that the arguments for faith are plausible. That is not the same as feeling the faith in your soul.

I expect you’re right; and that’s probably why we can’t make sense of each other’s argument.

[What_Exit]

@Frank

I expect you’re right; and that’s probably why we can’t make sense of each other’s argument.

Just curious, are you atheist or just a casual agnostic or something else?

Contrapuntal, I sent you a PM, I hope you consider it and reply when you get a free moment.

Jim

[Dunderman]

@Frank

I’ve already done that, Liberal, as if your nonsensical proposition would prove anything. Back in my late teens, early twenties, I was drawn into a couple of different Christian groups. I chose to join them - I read, studied, prayed, the whole nine yards. Then I chose to leave them.

Because you didn’t believe, right? So you couldn’t make yourself believe?

I’ve heard this “choosing to believe” stuff many times, but I do believe this is the first time I’ve heard it from a nonreligious person (if you are religious, I apologize for the misunderstanding).

[Frank]

@Priceguy

Because you didn’t believe, right? So you couldn’t make yourself believe?

Correct.

What Exit?, I can’t refer you to my posting history because I rarely get involved in religious threads. (And I’m not sure why I picked this one to discuss it.) I’m mostly atheist, with the occasional day when I wake up agnostic, but a cup of coffee and a cigarette usually sets me right.

[What_Exit]

@Frank

Correct.

What Exit?, I can’t refer you to my posting history because I rarely get involved in religious threads. (And I’m not sure why I picked this one to discuss it.) I’m mostly atheist, with the occasional day when I wake up agnostic, but a cup of coffee and a cigarette usually sets me right.

Thank you for answering. I find myself with no more belief that there is no God than a belief that there is.

Jim

[Liberal]

@Frank

I expect you’re right; and that’s probably why we can’t make sense of each other’s argument.

Agreed. I apologize for not making myself more clear. It’s just my perspective, I guess. Faith is something my intellect (thankfully) struggles against. But I just love Him. I really can’t help it.