It does seem that there’s a fair bit of “It’s reprehensible that the bear I was poking in the face bit me” going on here.
Over at the BBC, they note that these particular Maccabi fans are noted for this sort of behavior.
Now, I’m sure I’ll be accused of rationalizing the violence towards them, which I am not. But again, poking the bear has predictable results.
In reply, I am not comparing the Macabe fans actions to Hamas’ actions. I am saying that Israel’s actions in Gaza have led to an increase in antisemitic violence elsewhere. I certainly don’t justify the violence, but I am not blind to the cause and effect at play here.
With your track record here, I find it hard to believe that you are just posting this story as a news update. You have a very clear agenda, and this story fits into it. And nobody starts a thread with the intention that there won’t be a reaction from the rest of the members here. Eyerolls right back atcha.
You replied, “That’s why Israel needs to exist as a strong nation that can defend the Jewish people.” So now that Israeli actions are leading to increased violence against Jewish people outside of Israel, what outcomes are you hoping for?
Because Antisemitism only started in 1948?
This has nothing to do with Israel. This is about people who hate Jews. That’s why they weren’t beating up football fans who said offensive things to them (which, by the way, is also not justified. If we started breaking the skull of anyone who said “globalize the Intifada”, you wouldn’t be OK with that…). They were beating down anyone vaguely Jewish looking who they could get their hands on.
Yeah, us Jews are so wily in the way we control the media. You caught me. Now the Elders of Zion are gonna be really mad at me. 
I posted this story because I’m upset about the fact that my nationality can get me beaten up. I can’t speak to my daughter Hebrew in public for fear that some Pro Hamas zealot is going to attack her. Fuck that.
Well, Israel sent planes to go pick up the victims of this pogrom, so that’s a good first step. Then we need to apply political pressure on the Netherlands, so they crack down on this bullshit. (You’ll notice the attackers were arrested; back before Israel existed, anti-Semite progromers didn’t get in trouble for their actions, they were often rewarded).
And if the situation continues to deteriorate in Amsterdam, at least the Jewish people will have somewhere to go. Unlike the last time that Antisemitism became a problem in the Netherlands, we don’t need to hide in an attic anymore; we have our own country.
I am sceptic about football supporters at an away game being “persecuted”.
I think the headline should be “media is being played like a fiddle”.
Ah, you’re right, the video actually showed them chanting “FUCK the Jews”, not “Gas” them. Glad you proved that there’s no antisemitism problem in Australia.
So if the people chanting “Fuck the Jews” all got their skulls bashed in, we’d be cool with that, right? They, how did MrDibble put it, “fucked around and found out”?
Started?
I don’t think those people are innocent. Two gangs of hooligans clashed in Amsterdam. Their country of origin isn’t a factor.
And yes, the Ajax fans did shout antisemitic slogans, but that is what hooligans do. Listen if a black or eastern player is on the field,
No, I did not say that antisemitism started in 1948. I said that Israel’s actions in Gaza have led to an increase in antisemitic violence elsewhere. Do you deny that is true?
Also, yes it does have something to do with Israel. And it is about people who hate Jews. Coincidentally, most people who hate Jews have a strong opinion on Israel. You know this, but you continue to make statements like the one above, which I have to say does not do your arguments any good.
Why do you continue to play this card which only makes you look foolish and desperate. I’m trying to have a conversation, and when you post things like this it tells me any further discussion is pointless.
Excellent paragraph, that should have been the lede of your original post. It is both powerful and personal, a great combination. The concluding two paragraphs are also very good. You misunderstood my statement that you have a clear agenda as being a bad thing. I might not agree with your agenda, but you are honest and consistent with it which I appreciate. Whether or not you were hoping for a reaction, you had to know that there would be one to your original post. By just dropping the link without adding that excellent paragraph about how this event makes you feel, you allowed other people to drive the tone of this thread.
I am saying this as someone who has very recently come to terms with the reality that I need to find new ways to try to change people’s opinions on Trump. I literally cannot comprehend why anyone would ever vote for him, particularly when by all logic doing so is against their best interests and will lead to genuine harm and pain for many people. And yet, here we are. But with three kids, I can’t just continue to howl into the wind and hope that this time my faultless arguments hit home, because it hasn’t worked for nine years.
Similarly, I know that you sincerely believe in your position and both the logic and the justifications for the arguments you have been making for the past 13 months. And I am not telling you that you are wrong for your beliefs. I am telling you, however, that if you want to try to change some opinions here, what you are doing now isn’t working and won’t work.
Yep. The war in Gaza is not the cause of antisemitic violence. Jew Hatred is.
It’s not a coincidence that people who hate Jews have strong opinions on Israel. It’s the exact opposite of a coincidence that people who hate Jews hate a Jewish country.
I’m in full agreement with you there, pretty much word for word other than the number of kids.
To be honest, my goal here is not to change minds; I don’t think minds can be changed on the Israeli/Palestine issue. Whether Jews deserve self determination or not is a much deeper seated and older issue than how people feel about the economy or about immigration. I mean, half the people on this site use the term for that belief as a slur. There’s no bridging that gap.
I’m mostly posting because I don’t want the Zionist message to be drowned out entirely by people who detest Zionism and insist that they be allowed to define it.
But I appreciate what you are trying to do.
OK, we’re cool. I may have pushed your buttons too hard a few times, but as I said I appreciate your sincerity.
Some people, at least, maintain their moral clarity:
Thanks, Joe!
Eta: and Justin:
The Dutch king is taking this seriously too, at least.
There is evidence coming out that this was a planned and organized attack. Absolutely horrifying. I could easily imagine it happening here.
Are there any similar videos from Amsterdam?
Huh?
My point was that if you read the whole thing (it was a breaking news timeline) you’d see that prior to this there were numerous reports of Maccabi fans causing trouble, including shouting epithets at Arab (/Muslim?) people and ripping down Palestinian flags.
So I stand by what I said: Poking the bear has predictable results. Doesn’t make the bear right, but it doesn’t make the poker right either.
Is there any footage of these alleged actions? I’m not saying they didn’t happen, I’m just asking whether there is any proof.
There are lots of reports of ProPals ripping down posters of kidnapped Jewish children, and shouting threatening slogans like “globalize the Intifada”. Is that “poking the bear”? Is it going to be totally understandable if roving gangs of Jews start patrolling the streets on motorcycles and take baseball bats to the skull of anyone they think look Arab? "Oh, that sucks, but what did you expect when you poked the bear?
So the level of agency you attribute to ProPalestinian people is the same as the level of agency you attribute to a savage animal? Interesting.
(Most species of bear are actually quite gentle and will most likely flee if poked. We shouldn’t tolerate this bear slander!)
I don’t know. I read the BBC article, it mentions several incidents, and I’m prepared to take the BBC at its word. You are under no obligation to do so, but according to what I linked some of the events took place the day before the attacks on Israelis.
If it’s done in front of a bunch of Israelis? Yes. Yes it is. Being an asshole has a strong correlation with getting beat. If I’m an asshole to some dude’s girlfriend, I have at least some responsibility for the altercation that may happen.
Regarding this:
You’re ignoring at least the possibility that what happened was retribution.
Tell me: Is it possible that if the Maccabi fans hadn’t been assholes, the attacks on the Israeli fans wouldn’t have happened? I’m not asking if it is fact, mind you. Just if it’s possible.
…I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but the police investigation found they weren’t saying this either.
It is. If a Palestinian soccer team did that in crown heights, i suspect violence would have ensued, too.
Honestly, riots after big sports events isn’t that uncommon. Among people of a variety of ethnic backgrounds.