Trump supporter here. I agree with UltraVires. Everyone knows that all politicians lie. That’s part of the package. Trump supporters also know not to listen to what he says, but to watch what he does. And the things that he is doing are things that we agree with. Thinks like keeping out criminal aliens, being a watchdog on China, lowering taxes, creating jobs, etc. Things that frankly I can’t understand anyone opposing.
While I do not agree with your assessment, we’ll take his accomplishments as a given for the sake of argument in this exchange.
Wouldn’t that be true of pretty much any republican holding the office?
All politicians overpromise and underdeliver. If that’s a lie, then all politicians lie. I can grant that The Wall was a lie of that type.
Not all politicians say things that are verifiably and demonstrably untrue, and Trump is, while not entirely unique in that regard, certainly exceptional at it.
ETA: Just had a thought. Is that actually it? Is it the idea that, since all politicians lie, you might as well have the biggest liar? That the lying is actually something that you find attracts you to follow him?
You might find it useful to consider the distinction between a lie and bullshit made by Harry Frankfurt.. Roughly speaking, the former is more strictly an intent to deceive, whereas the latter is a kind of rhetoric.
Consider for example, a used-car salesman telling you that “Women love Buicks. I’m telling you, the guys I sell Buicks to come back to me and say 'I’ve never gotten so much tail in my life as I do in this Buick. You buy this car, I promise you you’ll get laid.”
Is that a lie? It’s a false statement for sure. But everyone with an IQ above room temperature understands what’s being done here, and most of us will either roll our eyes, or laugh at the absurdity, and get on with evaluating the car. We understand that it was always bullshit, meant to be either meaningless or else as a way of conveying a general impression along the lines of “this car is classy and upscale.” No one with functional social skills is gonna ask if the salesman has a cite for the erotic power of a Buick, or bring the car back and complain that he hasn’t had sex.
Note that that doesn’t mean bullshit is “good,” or “okay” … just that it’s different, and people react to it differently.
I think that a good number of the things that Democrats call “lies” are perceived by Trump supporters as bullshit, along the lines of “I promise you, this car will get you laid.” You don’t take it literally; you laugh at the absurdity of this ridiculous salesman and you get on with the business of buying the car … assuming of course you’re in the market for a Buick anyway. If you hate Buicks and yet found yourself forced to listen to the absurd claims of a hyped-up Buick salesman … well, then you might get angry and annoyed. And you might start thinking “wow, those dumb people buying Buicks because they think they’ll get laid! How can they believe this guy?”
I know probably 30 people who voted for Trump. I don’t know anyone who would say “Trump is an admirable person that I want my children to emulate.” At the end of the day, they just liked the car he was selling (or at least more than the alternative). It wasn’t like they took every word of his pitch as a literal guarantee. That’s going to shape how you perceive the salesman’s claims, either as damnable lies, or as amusing bullshit.
Regards,
furt
(To make the obvious disclaimers for the weaker readers: of course there are some people that really do take every Trump statement deadly seriously, just as there are people that deified Obama; most presidents have hard-core groupies. That’s not the point. And of course Trump also tells lies, in addition to bullshitting. He’s a politician. That also wasn’t the point.)
But he’s telling you that it’s a brand new Buick, but it’s actually a third hand Tata.
Nm
I know two ultra-conservative Trump dudes, and they’ve both said the same thing: “Everybody lies, c’mon. Remember when Hillary said she was under fire in Bosnia? There’s no difference.”
To continue furt’s used car salesman analogy, they left the last dealership because the saleswoman kept talking about the safety features of the car, and what they wanted was a car that wouldn’t wreck.
The used car salesman, however, assures them that the car can’t wreck because it doesn’t have crumple zones.
I will agree that the latter makes the better salesman, but the former offered a better car.
Cutting taxes while raising spending just runs up more debt and makes it harder to borrow when the rainy days come, and they will. That’s how someone can oppose tax cuts.
Trump gives you chocolate cake for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I can’t understand anyone opposing that, except for people who don’t want to be obese diabetics.
Not “they will”, but the rainstorm is upon us right now. I’m not sure exactly what we just spent on coronovirus relief, nor what we will spend in the future, but you start with a trillion here and trillion there, soon you are talking about real money.
They like chocolate cake though. And he assures them that eating it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner is the healthiest diet possible. Since they like chocolate cake, they believe him.
ETA: and that’s not actually chocolate cake that he is feeding them either.
You’re substituting your opinion for theirs. All of the Trump supporters I know are, broadly speaking, satisfied with his policy performance, even if their feelings about his persona/rhetoric are mixed. Certainly he’s acted more in line with their preferences than Hillary would have.
YOU may think what he’s delivered is a substandard product, they disagree.
Regards,
furt
They can disagree all day long; being delusional doesn’t mean the product isn’t substandard.
I think the bottom line is simply that they know they are not substantively better off under Trump. But now the libs are angry and miserable too. So, WINNING.
No, not entirely. The tax cuts do result in people keeping more of what they earn, at least temporarily. But just like gorging yourself on chocolate cake, you get the pleasure now and you pay for it later. I can understand why Trump’s supporters want chocolate cake. I can’t understand why they act as though “later” will never come.
Yes, I can clearly see that he is selling you a bill of goods.
I suppose if an out of control pandemic, a massive recession, and losing all standing as a world leader is the product that you wanted, then that is the product you got.
But at least you got judges on the courts to oppress women and protect your guns, right?
If half the bar tells you you’re drunk, you probably are.
When you conclude half the country is “delusional,” not simply possessed of different goals or priorities or opinions, the problem is probably with you.
Trump supporter here. This exactly. Yes, he’s a flaming ass clown. But he’s better than Hillary at making conservative policy decisions and better at Hillary at talking tough about China.
Which is all he does.
Once again, wouldn’t that be true of any republican holding office?
I’d disagree with a Kasich or a Romney, I’d vote against them and fight against their policies. But I would think that what they are doing is what they actually believe is for the best of the country, rather than solely for their own interests.
I’d expect them to be misleading and maybe tell half truths, but to not just blatantly tell inflammatory lies constantly.
If we could wave a wand and replace Trump with any of the republicans who ran in 2016, would you pick one of them, or keep Trump?
I wonder how many Americans would be dead if Trump were bad at making conservative policy decisions. Was scrapping President Barack Hussein Obama’s pandemic response plan and team an example of good conservative policy decision making or bad conservative policy decision making? They often look the same to me.
63M isn’t half the country. It’s Just a little less than half of 2016 voters.
That said, well over half the country believe in a god, without a shred of evidence. Large populations laboring under delusion is hardly a unique phenomenon and is certainly applicable to the Trump cult.
Maybe someday someone will explain to you why supporting kidnapping children and putting them in concentration camps is bad even in the people doing it promise to give you money. Not me, though.
Another possibility to consider is others oppose him because they’re savvy enough to know that Trump did not propose solutions to problems. He just spewed right-wing populist nonsense so the people in front of him would clap and drool and say his name. I see no reason to pretend his opinions on a given subject are well thought out or practical or useful or even true. I see no reason to think he knows anything about trade with China or job creation.