Sure, but if you’re going to keep the UJ because of “significant British heritage,” then at the very least there should be something on the flag that denotes the country’s Aboriginal heritage.
That’s not true of New Zealand as much because the Maori *are *represented; the four stars of the Southern Cross represent the United Tribes of New Zealand (as I understand it; I am not particularly conversant with New Zealand’s history except as it pertains to rugby).
Yeah, that’s not exclusionary at all …:dubious:
Beyond that, given that New Zealand’s British heritage is so well represented in language and government it seems a bit superfluous to go on about it on a flag, too. Having said that, I kind of like the fact that Oz and NZ have Union Jacks on their flags. I’m not sure exactly why, but I think it bespeaks a better relationship with their colonial past.
The stars representing the tribes is not something I’ve heard before. It’s possible, but what I know of our history etc it doesn’t make any sense to me.
By “Aboriginal” you mean native people?
This is my contention. I feel that the koru / Fern far better represent the way I feel about my heritage as a kiwi than the union jack.
I tend to agree. I would’ve thought something with kiwi would’ve made it into the finals.
The original NZ flag (which also had four stars) was chosen by the United Tribes, according to Wikipedia.
No, I meant Aboriginal. Originally I had mentioned Australia in the first part of that post, distinguishing it from NZ because Australia’s flag doesn’t reference its Aboriginal heritage (the stars on the Oz flag apparently just symbolize the states). Then I rewrote the post and apparently deleted the reference to Australia by mistake. :smack:
I wouldn’t want the Union Jack to be on any new flag NZ might choose and I wish it wasn’t on the Australian flag. What I said still holds true though.
So are American language and government, but we haven’t put a Union canton on our flag for two centuries.
Didn’t Helen Clark once propose simply taking the canton off the flag (i.e., leaving the Southern Cross on a blue field)? That wouldn’t be bad.
Let’s be distinctive and cool about it, Kiwis.
The spiral might be distinctive but it is uncool, and the multi-triangular one is neither distinctive or cool.
That means the fern leaf is in, especially since they did a pretty job with the design.
There are already enough flags featuring stars, red, white and blue.
That makes it the black and white fern leaf for me.
That idea actually made the ‘final forty’.
https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/gallery/design/14125
But it really does seem as though there was some form of secret agenda, with the Selection Panel determined to include a fern motif - three ‘mature’ fern fronds and an unfurled fern tip (koru).
It was this denial of true choice that principally drove the public petition to include the ‘Red Peak’.
I have always tended to be very sceptical when it comes to ‘conspiracies’, but as I noted in a previous entry, either by serendipity or design I cannot help feeling that the public is being conditioned into selecting a ‘fern’. (Before the ‘Red Peak’ was added, it had to include a fern.)
And the preferential format of the first referendum gives the two almost identical designs (by Lockwood) twice the chance of any other contender. In fairness, this should not have been allowed to be a possibility.
I am really coming around to the Koru flag. It’s a good idea, it’s conceptually simple, and distinctive. If this referendum fails to change the present flag, maybe in the future you could change it to another Koru design.
I think the Red Peak is trying too hard to be “simple to draw.” I liked it for a while, then I decided it’s too vague.
The busy ones, with the fern and the stars, are pretty, and they keep much of the feel of the present flag. I like that. I don’t know if they’re “modern” exactly, but they move away from crosses and right angles in a cool way. I think the black helps a lot, there, to contrast the white. Also, the red just repeats the color of the stars, where the black makes that section more clearly its own element.
I’m not really sure about the alternated black/white fern. There might be a better way to do the silver fern, but it is a decent design.
So, here’s how I would vote:
Good points, Nelson Pike. “Distinctive and cool,” is a good guideline.
Oh, and the word I wasn’t remembering, for the way #4 did the frond, was “counterchanged” not “alternated.” I’ve been away from heraldry a long time.
Not bad, but not what I was talking about. I found the Helen Clark flag on Wikipedia.
(If you don’t want to click, it’s the current flag with the Union canton taken out, leaving the Southern Cross in its current form over on the fly).
Gives an interesting asymmetry, I think.
Looking at the Blue Ensign page on Wikipedia, I am struck by how many flags of the Commonwealth are even now “Blue Ensign with a badge.”
I think it makes sense to get away from that look altogether. Maybe get rid of not only the Union Jack, but all the blue. Maybe just a single, clear charge like the counterchanged fern.
I think it’s a shame that Otis Frizzell’s black-white-green koru design isn’t in the five finalists.
But it depends on what New Zealanders want.
The problem is that New Zealanders had no say on the finalists. So it seems they will not be getting the flag they want.
Okay, guys, I’m now seeing korus EVERYWHERE. I have korus on the brain. Do you have any idea how many women wear dresses with black and whiie curvilinear patterns? The world has turned into a giant Rohrschach blot.
As far as I know, every recent poll has indicated that the flag the majority of New Zealanders want will be presented to them in the second referendum.
I’m really not sure just what to make of this statement. Maybe I just don’t understand your semantics.
The matter of change (or not) is to be decided by two binding referendums. (ie. the decision, determined by the polls, must be set into law).
In the first referendum (20 Nov - 11 Dec) voters are asked to rank their choices from the five chosen designs (by the appointed Panel). These are the ***only ***options.
This poll is a preferential one, with the votes gained by the lowest polling designs being redistributed to those above until one design achieves at least 50% approval.
I would imagine that the winning design will known well before the second referendum, (scheduled for March 2016) which will determine, by simple majority, whether the existing flag is to be changed or not.
An important point is - even though everyone is being encouraged to select a challenger, a great number of these people (possibly a majority) may not actually want any change. And only the vote in the second poll can assess this.
I’m saying that every poll I’ve seen shows quite a healthy majority in favor of not changing, which will be a choice in the second referendum.
