But how much of that is because there’s no better choice they can vote for?
I’ve never heard of a national flag being chosen by all the people — as opposed to it evolving naturally from above or as in this case offered from a fixed selection ( which itself is not common ) — and can’t see how it would work anyway. Would the first 1000 designs be whittled down to 10 by single-transferable vote, and then down to 5 ( which is the same as these presently being imposed by committee ) until finally there could be only one ?
And even then this would suffer from the defects of democratic choice: just because 35% want the Teletubbies on the national flag, and all the other choices received less than that, doesn’t mean that is the right thing to do.
Well, they get to choose from five designs, which I believe is more democratic input than any other people have ever had into the design of their flag. I’m not sure what you mean by the public having no say in the finalists. That’s how referendums usually work, with a question being defined that the people are asked to answer. Do you think there should have been dozens of rounds of voting before, to whittle down the 10,000 submissions? The referendum already appears to be unpopular, so making it a slog through even more flags people don’t want would seem to be worse.
The blue/black/fern is my favorite.
The white/black/fern is my 2nd.
Yeah -
I think that the “final five” have pretty much captured the “flavour” of what the vast majority of the population would like to see on the flag -
Personally - I think the Koru could have been executed better, but I think that a “Koru Flag” needs to be one of the 5 finalists.
My personal favourite is the silver fern / southern cross with the black
As just one New Zealander I cannot agree with your contention that we got what ‘the vast majority … would like to see in a flag’.
Until the ‘Red Peak’ entry was belatedly (and somewhat reluctantly) added, the Flag Consideration Panel (FCP) ostensibly offered the public no choice at all - three ‘fern’ designs (with two virtually identical) and the fourth, an immature fern frond (the ‘koru’).
The more discerning public might well think that from a ‘long list’ of more than 10 000 suggestions (containing a wide variety of alternatives) the FCP could have chosen four*** varied ***designs.
I really am a reluctant conspiracist, but in view of the fact that Prime Minister Key had publicly expressed his preference for a new flag ‘that has a silver fern on it’ and the FCP has then distilled four ferns from a field of 10 000, it is natural to start thinking we are being ‘conditioned’.
So, really, we actually have very little to no choice at all. The first referendum (or, more correctly, the ‘plebiscite’), with it’s preferential/transferable voting format virtually guarantees that something with a fern in it must win in the first referendum.
As a footnote; there really were some excellent ideas that never saw light of day. Have a look at a sampling here -
The thing is - it is a Silver Fern of some flavour or another that has been bandied about as a New Flag since I was in school some 20+ years ago - so it’s hardly surprising (to me at least) that fern designs will dominate - and naturally, the Koru is a representation of an unfurling fern frond anyway.
Are there any specific designs that you feel should have been included that aren’t - that are also markedly different from what has been proposed?
For the record - I am whole heartedly against the “Read Peak” design - but I wouldn’t mind another Koru option.
Also - in terms of referendum design - I think that “5 Options” is already at the upper limit for avoiding confusion and getting poor results from too many choices.
Finally - if the ultimate vote is to keep the existing flag - I do think that the “winning design” from this runoff can form the basis of further discussion and modification moving forward.
In my mind - it is inevitable that we will get a new flag in my lifetime, if the time is not right yet then the issue will come up again in the medium term future and its a case of exactly what design is going to be attractive enough to get people to change.
ETA - looked at those options at the link - the tongue is firmly in the cheek there right? The geometrics are all ugly - and while fun, the laser firing Kiwi…
To address your questions -
As the PO of this thread I’ve tried to remain an impartial bystander and not prejudice opinion by showing my own colours.
Firstly, I wasn’t suggesting the addition any more options - although, with the preferential vote it wouldn’t have mattered if there had have been as many as ten.
It may or may not be true that ‘the vast majority favour a fern in the design’, but that is not the point. (I think the reality is, as polling would indicate, that the majority still favour the existing flag).
But, even if it is true, one or perhaps two different ‘fern’ design choices (out of five) would have amply satisfied that preference. And, if the majority do indeed want a ‘fern’, then they would get it.
You ask what else could have been included. Well, almost anything that doesn’t look like a fern or koru could fit that bill. I’m not promoting it, but what about this one? It’s a definite departure from the fern fixation.
It was not with tongue in cheek I included the link showing a few other options. I only included it to illustrate that there were other meaningful possibilities. (The ‘laser kiwi’ was tongue in cheek. But not my tongue or my cheek).
Considering your indication of liking another koru design in the mix, I’m surprised that the Smythe/Walters design in the above isn’t something you might consider.
I don’t know just how long your ‘lifetime’ is going to be but I think you might be a bit over-optimistic in thinking there will be another chance to re-visit this in the near future (if the present initiative flops).
I’ve seen the ‘new flag’ idea seriously bandied about for at least the last forty years and it’s taken right up until now to happen.
My feeling is that if it doesn’t change this time it will be another very long wait on the back-burner for another chance - maybe if/when we become a republic.
I’ve just reached 40 - so lifetime means the next 40 years or so (I hope)
Yeah - I think the Green Koru would have been a better option.
In my very humble opinion - 10 choices would be too many - it would simply confuse people.
What, I think, might help the debate for the future would be to narrow down the range of options a bit by reaching some sort of consensus on what needs to be on the flag -
Should it be a Koru or a Fern - both? Does the Southern Cross need to be there? A nod to the Union Jack or must this be gone?
If the “Silver Fern” designs come out tops this time around I can well imagine a future discussion having 5 different options based on a Silver Fern - (I can imagine a simple Silver Fern on a black background as being popular)
Likewise for a Koru - there were some really nice options based around this in the earlier phase.
For me - I don’t want a Kiwi on the flag - it feels too gimicky and “logoish” for my liking
By the time the place becomes a republic New Zealand may have become an Asian country, and the new rulers, maybe China, would have their own ideas as to aligning a national flag with their values. In the meantime, bearing in mind most British people think of Scotland when we think of New Zealand, I’m surprised some variant on the Saltire wasn’t considered.
I just looked it up, and Nova Scotia has snagged a reversed St. Andrew’s Cross, blue on white, but other colours could be assigned.
Speaking of blue/white, looking at the page on Greek Flags, simplicity is the key — and avoiding boring old tricolors: the most distinctive flags there ( and there are a lot ) remain a blue cross on a white ground 0r the reverse. The present one is fairly dull.
Greece also has the most absurd Flag Code; a flag is just a rag, too much protocol and reverence bespeaks the vacant mind.
As for Kiwis, Kiwi Boot Polish seems to have had in the past dear little fellows on the tin — not now, just feeble as a logo at present as if they are ashamed of the name — as one can see scrolling down this Google Image page to the 1920s and beyond.
So, the Scots are not British then?
How do you get that ? Scots think of New Zealand as quasi-Scottish, as do the rest of Britons.
They in particular are proud of the ancient link: Dùn Èideann Forever !