A rant about sister-in-law, and a question about meddling

The BBQ Pit
1

My brother and my sister-in-law have been together off and on for 15 years. They got married, however, many years into their relationship, after my own marriage. I see little of them even though they’re only 20 miles away. Their favored form of entertainment appears to be retro cocktail parties, complete with fancy costumes and vintage dress - cool, but not compatible in a mingling sort of way with my 4 little children.

I was recently discouraged from interaction with her almost entirely by a phone conversation which began with a bitch about a party she went to, where the children of the various couples were relegated to upstairs and were supposed to stay there, but didn’t, and the parents did nothing about it while the children laid seige to the party where adults were apparently getting totally sloshed. It ruined her evening and she bitched at great length about how inconvenienced and annoyed she was, and how she had to leave the party because the children were so horrible (no mention of why she, or the hosts of the party, didn’t approach the parents involved and request them to curb or remove their children). She culminated this with ‘children should be seen and not heard’, and how much she hates children (we were getting into rabid ChildFree territory)…and then proceeded to invite me to come have a ‘girls night out’ and get drunk with her.

Yeah, like I can just get a babysitter for 4 kids under 7 at the drop of a hat. Right. Next point.

Now I hear that she is STILL bitching to people about how inconsiderate I was for getting married on her birthday…13 years ago. Never mind I didn’t know it was her birthday (I never did know when that was until I heard this). Never mind she and my brother weren’t even married then. And never mind I couldn’t have realistically changed the date anyway, as it was the on only weekend the church had open that summer - I ruined her birthday 13 years ago. How inconsiderate of me!

Also, apparently, after a party she attended recently with my brother, where he took many pictures of one woman’s costume, but fewer of his wife in her costume, she smacked him upside the head with the flat of her hand (not a joke slap either). The person who told me this smoothed the situation over by saying she had taken many pictures, including of SIL, so not to worry…

Geez almighty. She seems to think the entire world revolves around her. And given that she was willing to smack him in front of a 3rd party, it seems likely to be an ingrained behaviour. (By all reports, he simply absorbed it without reaction.)

That was the rant, now the question:

Is there ever a point at which it becomes enough of my business to try to call my brother privately and say, “I heard you got smacked upside the head for not taking enough pictures of your wife at a party recently…are you okay with this kind of thing?”

I mean, he’s my brother. If he were a sister, I bet I wouldn’t even hesitate to ask, because the idea of a man smacking his wife upside the head for ‘infractions’ is very offensive to me. But he’s a man, and presumably men can take care of themselves…right? Also, for all I know, they have a consentual relationship in which they have decided that she has the “right” to abuse him, and he chooses to accept it. You know, Gor in reverse kind of thing. I don’t know. Also, I have no direct evidence of a pattern of behavior, just the one instance in front of a witness.

Or would I be meddling to even bring it up? This is bothering me. I really really don’t like the idea of adults smacking each other for infractions. But I don’t want to make a bigger deal out of it than it is, including sticking my nose in where it doesn’t belong.

2

Women hit men.

It’s a fact.
I know it’s a fact because the first Mrs. Zebra - lets call her THE BITCH - use to abuse me with physical violence.

Men can be very unlikely to report or admit that such things happen. So the point you should talk to your brother about it is the next time you are alone with him.

3

MHO: You should stay out of it. Either the husband is okay with it, or has found some way to be okay with it, or eventually he’ll get sick of her and dump her. Either way it’s none of your business unless your brother comes to you and asks for your opinion or help.

4

Just out of curiosity - if it was Chotii’s sister that was being smacked in the head by her husband, and she felt that there was reason to suspect further physical abuse, would you still recommend she “stay out of it” because “it’s none of her business”?

Abuse is abuse is abuse. If you really think there’s something there, then you should find a way to talk to your brother.

5

Hell yeah you should say something to your brother!

I’d say that if he’s okay with being physically abused, then he needs help. As others have said, we wouldn’t accept a woman being “okay” with being hit.

Besides, people tend to dismiss men hitting women because women are oh so weak, and how could being hit by one possibly hurt? Ummm…yeah. If I wanted to hurt you, you’d be hurtin’, Bud.

6

I emphasized your own words above… if he were a sister, you wouldn’t even be hesitating. Think about that. Don’t discount your intuition about this situation. If you really believed this wasn’t a big deal, it wouldn’t be gnawing at you. I don’t think it is meddling to express your concern to a family member or friend in this situation. But I do think it will be tricky, and your brother might not take it well. If you are able to keep your distaste for your SIL out of it, and focus solely on concern for him (“I heard this happened, is it true? Are you okay with this?”), it might be okay.

7

A man getting hit by a woman (just to focus on a narrow slice of this scenario) is generally not quite the same in terms of practical physical or social consequences as the other way around. If women hitting men were incarcerated at the same rate men are for the same act the jails would be packed.

Women hit men across a much broader variety of circumstances than men hit women, and with a much wider range of force. Women with reasonably rugged boyfriends or SO’s will strike men quite forcefully on the arm or chest if annoyed or teased and sometimes even in a kinda-sorta humorous way, but still forcefully. Generally face slaps don’t happen unless a woman is really pissed and kicking (hard) is usually only done with the intent to seriously hurt or injure as women’s legs are often quite powerful.

In most cases where the man is more physically powerful than the woman (sometime’s he not) it’s kind of up to the man, to gauge where this falls and set the acceptable limits of physical behavior with his girlfriend or wife.

If your brother’s big enough to take care of himself with her I’d really stay out of it, as he’s making the decisions about those limits.

8

Yeah, until she hits him over the head with a frying pan.

Of course you’re correct that in many/most cases when women hit men, it is not done with serious intent to injure the man. But when someone deals with anger by using physical violence, there is a significant chance that it will escalate. This is something that should be nipped in the bud.

There’s also a chance that if Chotii’s brother is confronted by violence, he might eventually respond in kind. He may be the most non-violent guy in the world, but if he’s being attacked, he might feel the need to defend himself–including temporarily disabling his attacker. Whether he makes this decision consciously or subconsciously doesn’t matter. In other words, he might beat the shit out of her to get her to stop trying to beat the shit out of him. And guess who’s gonna get blamed in that scenario?

I slapped a boyfriend once. I was very angry and whacked him. It was my first boyfriend in college. Hitting occurred in the household I grew up in, so it was a natural thing to do. But it was wrong wrong wrong! I felt horrible. The boyfriend was kind enough to give me another chance. 15 years later, I can say that that was the last time I hit a boyfriend in anger. But I’m ashamed to say that I have felt the urge to whack my husband on a couple of occasions. Fortunately, the link between my brain and my hand has atrophied through long disuse.

9

I’d step in now and talk to your brother just like you said you would do if it were your sister getting physically abused by a husband.

Men are often unable to deal with, or leave, abusive situations because they have been taught that a ‘real man’ could just handle it, and ‘men are not abuse victims’ for much of their lives.

I had a friend, male, who was abused (hit with fists, objects, had things thrown at him) by his girlfriend, and he couldn’t even fathom that he was not the one in the wrong for quite some time.

Domestic violence against men might not be as common as that against women, but it’s no less severe a problem when it is happening.

10

I don’t agree with you at all, astro. As an adult woman, it is my responsibility to treat the men around me with respect, not theirs to set limits on how much I can kick and punch them, regardless of how big and strong they are. The thing with physical violence is that it isn’t about the physical damage, it is about the emotional message the hitter sends. In the case of the OP, the sister-in-law sent her husband the message of “You’re stupid, you’re incompetent, and I don’t respect you, and have no problem humiliating you in front of other people.” There is no doubt in my mind that he received the message loud and clear.

You also mention that the jails would be full if women were prosecuted like men for physical violence. I think women should be prosecuted like men; if it’s wrong for a guy to slap a girl, it’s wrong the other way around, too.

As for whether the OP should “meddle”, I think she should talk about it with her brother. Treat it just like she would if it was a sister who got slapped, which means telling him that you don’t like it when he is treated badly by his spouse, and you will help him in any way he wants if he decides he doesn’t want to take it anymore.

11

I knew a guy in college whose girlfriend would hit him on occasion. He just took it, though at one point he was saying he was going to leave her, but “after exams” because of the stress and such. I lost contact with him; I don’t know if he did leave her. He was a nice, handsome, sweet guy who could have easily found better - OK, she was gorgeous and smart, but also insanely jealous and a hitter - but when you talked with him about her, he seemed cowed, like he felt he had to put up with it.

A sister-in-law of mine would abuse her ex-husband when they were still married. On at least one occasion she had left long, bloody scratchmarks on his skin. Apparently she would pull the “cat-fight” style of moves (scratching, hair-pulling, slapping) against her sisters when they were teenagers, if she wanted to get her way. She filed domestic abuse charges against her current boyfriend, then went back to him. From stories we’ve heard about their fights (there were complaints made at their apartment complex about their arguments), she’s almost certainly “cat-fighting” again, and we suspect that in that instance, he struck back and the abuse escalated.

I would suggest that a concerned word with her brother would definitely not be out of the question. Guys seem to feel like they can’t do anything about it if they’re being hit.

12

If it’s geting to be a constant, chronic injuring behavior per ferret herder’s example then yes, but most of the time a man needs to gauge the situation. Getting your face slapped forcefully by an angry wife may piss a husband off, but the husband needs to decide if he deserved it. If a man is stupid enough to be obviously flirting with another women and gets his face slapped by his wife for it, I really don’t think his next stop should be a domestic crisis shelter

This is the real world and men are getting smacked and punched all the time by pissed off girlfriends and wives. If it’s a chronic habit then it needs to be addressed, but and occasional face slap is hardly cause for the calling in domestic abuse calvary.

13

Is it not the case that courts, both in the UK and the US, are heavily biased in favour of women? Men are thus scared to go to law and women use this against them.

I’d suggest the OP makes a notarized statement saying that X told him Y, and then make it available to his brother when the divorce happens. Beyond that, tread gently.

You know, this isn’t really a pittish thread - better in IMHO?

14

I’m all in favor of you talking to your brother as well, to let him know that you’ll always be there for him and you’ll help him in any way possible. But.

At the same time, don’t be surprised if he blows you off, or says it’s nothing, or says it didn’t really happen that way, or that your “source” was mistaken.
Even if she is abusing him, he may not want to admit it. You’ve gotta admit, from a certain perspective, it may feel a bit “weenie-ish” to admit he can’t protect himself from his wife.
It also may be that, since you are getting this information third-hand at best, your interpretation of the incident is not really what went down. You just don’t know.

Ultimately, however, you have to remember that even if he’s getting whaled on by her nightly, there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. He has to. The best you can do is offer support for him no matter what his circumstances. But if he’s not willing to change them then there’s nothing you can do about it, even if you want to.

So yeah, I’d say talk to him to offer your support, but don’t expect a whole lot from it. It’d be great if he did get out of the situation, or if it’s not really what it seems, but don’t count on it.

15

Nobody deserves to be hit.

Here’s a straw man for you to slap around. :wink:

Of course a man shouldn’t “call in the cavalry” for getting his face slapped. But that doesn’t mean he has to put up with it either.
I’d hate to live in your world, where spousal violence is the norm.

16

I have not spoken to brother about it yet. Did speak to parents, asking: At what point do you think it appropriate to say something?

Mother agrees: uncool. But doesn’t know what to do either. And has never observed the behavior, as brother and SIL are on their best behavior whenever they’re around the parents.
Father says: stay out of it, when he gets tired of it he’ll do something about it, but this is brother’s way, to avoid confrontation, and anything you can do will just make things worse. Says he has never seen any marks on brother, for what that’s worth.

Father also said, however, that it is possible to approach such situations when the door opens - say, for example, if I were to observe SIL whacking brother upside the head, I could turn to brother and say “Brother, is it really okay with you to have her hit you?” But father said the door would have to be open already, I can’t open it.

Anyway, I know this much: I have no idea how to call up and bring the subject up. Brother and I don’t talk much. Our lives just don’t intersect. Maybe we see each other once or twice a year - I’ve tried making social arrangements with them, but their social calendar is booked for months in advance with all the parties they go to, and I can’t plan that way with children.

But it really bugs me. :confused:

17

Eh, not true. I mean, abuse is wrong, but there are times when a person is asking for it. It’s not the greatest way to handle the situation, but I’d smack my bf if I caught him kissing someone in a bar.

That’s a pretty dramatic assumption.

18

Chotii, my brother’s ex-girlfriend started out by smacking him once in awhile. It eventually escalated to where he ended up in the emergency room with stab wounds on his back. One of them was very deep, and less than a half-inch from his heart.

For the love of your brother, please talk to him.

19

What kind of world do you live in where an occasional face slap is okay? If Mr. Amanita ever did anything so heinous that the thought of striking him entered my mind, I’d either check myself into therapy or leave him. If he ever slapped me in anger, I’d leave him. (At least temporarily, while everyone got counseling.) Mentally healthy adults do not strike their intimate partners in anger or to humiliate them in front of others, regardless of the genders of the hitter/hittee. Granted, Chotii does not know if this is a pattern of behavior for her SIL, but the heavy drinking and description of her brother as a non-confrontational type of person makes me think it might be.

Have to do this…

*… Getting your face slapped forcefully by an angry [husband] may piss a [wife] off, but the [wife] needs to decide if [she] deserved it. If a [woman] is stupid enough to be obviously flirting with another [man] and gets [her] face slapped by [her husband] for it, I really don’t think [her] next stop should be a domestic crisis shelter.

This is the real world and [women] are getting smacked and punched all the time by pissed off [boyfriends] and [husbands]. If it’s a chronic habit then it needs to be addressed, but an occasional face slap is hardly cause for the calling in domestic abuse calvary.*

20

Only because the domestic crisis shelter would most likely turn him away as part of the problem. The more likely outcome is that he’d never find the shelter to begin with, because shelter organizers will rarely tell a man where they’re located. He should put a lot of thought into whether he wants to give someone who is violent and physically abusive another chance, however. No one deserves to be hit unless hitting them is the only way to remove an immediate risk of serious injury or death at their hands.

I don’t care how much ‘bigger’ or ‘stronger’ they are than a woman. That is no fucking excuse for an adult to use violence to solve a problem.

Then you’d still be guilty of assault, and regardless of his having been kissing another woman he could press charges against you, obtain a PFA (Protection From Abuse order) and make your life very difficult because you acted out violently. You’d have every right to be angry, but you do not have any right to hit him.