A serious question for Sam Stone on Factual Errors

I am going to reluctantly, and with much equivocating, going to give Sam the benefit of the doubt.

What I think is happening, is that @Sam_Stone, like many of my (former) Conservative friends, has fallen down the rabbit hole of bad reporting, commentary disguised as ‘News’, and (self-imposed) information restriction, that they believe that they are martyrs, and mentally cannot afford to follow up on the facts lest they pretty much have to entirely re-examine their life and apologize to huge chunks of the world, not just the internet.

One of my friends, let’s call them Pete, was a pretty run of the mill conservative, who was uncomfortable with the whole LGBQT+ issue, pro-gun, comfortable with Christian morals ‘informing’ US law, and wanting the gov’t to ‘stay out of his business’. But he would actually look at facts - and if a Conservative politician was found to be cheating / breaking the law / etc, he would condemn them.

During the lead up to 2016 though, he kept taking what Fox (and others) was telling him without questioning. Still, he didn’t care for Trump’s lack of history when it came to supporting conservative values, and preferred Cruz ( :roll_eyes: ). But once Trump had the nomination, it was all about “well, he’s got the nomination and he’s better than Hillary” and so it went.

But by the time of Floyd/BLM, he was a True Believer. It was all about the narrative he was being fed every day by the news. And I’d try, oh how I’d try to point him to something like NPR or the BBC (because of course, CNN was the devil) to try to point out something like facts. And instead he’d pull the Sam lines of ‘people are saying’ or ‘there’s an investigation into…’ or ‘but the Democrats are already doing XYZ’.

And this is where Sam falls apart. Because, yes there is a rough equivalency from a POV that only Obi Wan Kenobi’s statements about Luke’s father can equal. IF (and it’s a huge give) you equate all the things various Democrats are ACCUSED of, to what Trump and his ilk are CONFIRMED of doing, then, yeah, both sides look equally bad (speaking to Sam’s Trump / Biden ‘just as bad’ comment).

But here’s the thing. 95+% (note I do not say 100%, there are bad apples in Democrats as well, and poor decisions can be made by anyone, such as Biden’s IMHO mishandling of the Afghanistan exit) of these accusations are false, misleading or flat out libel and have been proven so beyond a reasonable doubt. But if all you hear about from your ‘news’ is the accusations then it seems that the equivalency is valid.

The fact that Sam, like my friend Pete (although we’re not on talking terms anymore) absolutely refuses to look to the confirmation of the past, but only to the possible convictions of the future (it’s always the next bombshell, or next figure that’ll be the proof), allows them to continue to be ‘right’ and not have to go through the various mea culpas and self-examination they are otherwise due for.

And here’s the thing, and while I’m bothering to write this book for Sam yet have largely given up on Pete - I think at some level Sam knows he’s wrong. He is damn-well trying his hardest to ignore it, and he’s deflecting more like the main dish in Star Trek, but his near-constant efforts to move to ‘you’re being mean’ or his stance on admitting Trump is wrong but possibly still justified seems to indicate he’s not completely blind to his own contra-factual issues.

So here’s my last statement for Sam specifically - You don’t need to grovel, and you shouldn’t be asked to. What you should do is stop letting yourself be played by bad news sources. You can and should feel free to criticize politicians doing dumb shit, but don’t use that as an excuse to not evaluate how badly other individuals did/are doing. If you make an unsubstantiated claim, or one based on limited info, own it and move on while trying to do better the next time. I mean look at the ‘Disheveled Trump’ or the ‘Boebert paid companionship’ threads - plenty of people projected their hopes for schadenfreude in those waaaaay ahead of facts and confirmation, and almost all of them had no problems admitting it when they were wrong.

We will respect you more, rather than less for being able to take these steps, and it’ll go a long way to finding your arguments on these subjects as worthy of anything other than name calling.

I’ve got a pithy take on this dynamic at the ready:

Liberals argue against what Trump actually DID (based on significant and credible evidence). Conservatives argue against what conservatives, and conservative media, CLAIM that Liberals or Biden did or will do – even when there’s absolutely no credible, relevant evidence and they had to make it up out of whole cloth

I would wager a fairly large sum of money that, if a bipartisan panel of academics created a 100 question quiz on /factual/ issues of the economy, domestic issues, and foreign policy, that Liberals would score much better (ie, have much more accurate factual knowledge) than Conservatives.

After which, the Conservatives would shout “FAKE NEWS” and then storm off.

I have an idea for those of you who think I live in some kind of conservative bubble compared to you enlighteened tyoes who understand both sides and are definitely not in a liberal bubble.

I’ve had the idea for a while for a thread where two people agree to debate a political topic, with others refereeing for who won the debate. But here’s the kicker: The issue will be decided beforehand, but the volunteers don’t know which side they have to defend and it will be assigned randomly.

Alternatively, pick a topic, and two people debate. Then they have to switch sides and debate again from the others’ point of view. Same topic or a different one. The winner is the person who scores highest when averaged over both debates.

I’d be happy to go up against anyone here, on a number of topics. Then we can see who is in a bubble and who isn’t, and who really understands the other side’s point of view.

Any takers from the enlightened ones who think they understand my thinking so well and think they are better informed of both sides’ point of view?

And his latest post can be summed up in two words: “No, you.”

This addresses what is being discussed here about as much as proposing that we have an interpretive dance-off.

I simply cannot understand where you would get this idea about BIden. Terrible man?

Ask Senator Graham:

I have traveled the world with JOE and the private man
is exactly what you see in public. JOE BIDEN is articulate, de-
termined, kind, gracious, funny, and an eternal optimist. I
am confident he will continue to serve the Nation he loves
so much.

For clarification are you thusly suggesting that all issues have equally valid points of view and arguments on both sides?

Furthermore, the winner would not necessarily be the one that understands their arguments the best, if the point is to also make credible agruments.

Take so-called Critical Race Theory. If I were to be assigned to argue that one should be fearful of CRT being taught in schools, I would first of all ditch the label and instead try to find actual outrageous stuff that teachers or districts have taught, even though I can’t think of any off the top of my head. What I wouldn’t do is define CRT as something that it isn’t, and then imply, without proof, that what it supposedly is is rampant in American schools. The latter approach is unlikely to be viewed as a persuasive argument in a debate, even though that is, in actuality, their argument.

I can argue equally well that the Moonlanding did happen as that the moon landing was a hoax, while you liberal hive minds can only argue that it was real, therefore I’m better informed.

It’s not really your idea, it’s just basically what happens in any high school debate class. It’s meant to help you, so that when there is something that you do want to be persuasive about, you have the tools to do so.

See, I think this is a large part of your problem, you think that there are “winners” here. There aren’t, there are just people talking.

Your need to win is what blinds you to how disingenuous your “tactics” are.

Now, as far as your “proposal” goes… Who are you choosing to referee this competition of yours? Obviously, you would think that SDMB members would be prejudiced against you, so you probably don’t want to use them.

There is also how the debate is “scored”. If it is by persuasiveness over a “common” person, then some of your dishonest tactics would be useful. People will often believe an asserted lie told simply over a complex debunking, and it’s easy for you to tell ten lies, and look like the smart confident one, while your opponent is still explaining why your first lie is false.

If by an actual debate referee, you’d get negative points for your malicious tactics and misinformation.

That’s not how any of this works. That you would even propose such a ridiculous “competition” just shows how poorly you understand anyone’s point of view.

I’m definitely in. But I don’t see the value in establishing your ability to google arguments for a side you don’t agree with, but I’d love an honest debate.

Unfortunately, it is often viewed as a persuasive argument among low information voters, who Sam seems to think is his audience here.

I bet that Sam is a hit at parties, convincing anyone who can’t find a good excuse or route to escape his lecture of his righteousness. Then he comes here, and finds no takers, and decides we must all be indoctrinated hive minds who lash out mindlessly at any challenge to our dogma.

Uh, I think we already did that, again, Rachel Carson, who was not a mass murderer, sends you her regards. Even though you posted for many years that she was. And when confronted several times about it, you continue to ignore how wrong that poisoning of the well it was before any debate could be made.

Sad, but true. Well spoofed in this game show, in which contestants try to explain their conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination. (You’ll recognize one of them.)

This isn’t what you said in when discussing the Sussmann case.

@iiandyiiii quoted Benjamin Wittes on Lawfare.

Even taken on its own terms, the document is one of the very weakest federal criminal indictments I have ever seen in more than 25 years covering federal investigations and prosecutions.

You replied.

You didn’t say we had to wait until the end of the Durham investigation for the facts on the Sussmann case. You specifically said we needed to wait until the end of the trial.

Have you seen how weak the Sussmann was? Because as far as I can tell, you believed some obvious bullshit about the case when Sussmann was indicted and you still believe that obvious bullshit today.

e.g.

You posted that a month and a half after the trial ended that showed that to be a right wing fever dream.

You win 1,000 Internet Points for referencing Almost Live!

Speedwalker!

But you are an asshole.

Case in point.

What the fuck for? He’s long past the “benefit of the doubt” point.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt for two reasons. One, when not posting about politics and related threads, he’s a decent poster, and while I consider them incredibly narrow minded, I don’t consider him morally bankrupt. So, every once in a while, I hope they can be saved.

Two, sure this is a pit thread, and no one has to be nice to them, but some are absolutely and with malice baiting him. Which, let’s be clear, is fine by the standards of the thread, but if we go back to the actual OP, is about trying to get Sam to LOOK at where he is factually wrong and try to get him to explain himself, ideally in service of point one above.

While it’s been more of a default Pit thread since, plenty of people are trying to see if Sam will at least look at the facts, but the way he keeps dodging seems to be clear that he won’t. He is back to ‘if everyone was fair, I’d win’. And it’s become ever more clear that winning is his goal, rather than the merits of the argument and the verifiable facts behind said arguments.

I’ve always felt that the way to “win” a conversation is that all of the participants enjoyed it and would like to do it again.

From that aspect, Sam has lost, he’s lost badly.