A serious question

Great Debates
1

Why is it that when a religious thread is posted, anybody that posts their beliefs as a Christian and speaks about the Lord, they get ridiculed and put down? If an Athiest, Agnostic or some different religion or than Christian asks a question of that Christian, they are put down and belittled as “Bible Thumpers” when they give an answer. Christian people do not belittle them. At least I try not to. I only try to point out the way the Bible says it, as I understand the Bible. But then again, I am NOT perfect.

I never, not once, claimed that I was perfect. I never claimed, not one time, that I had all the answers.

In a different post, I claimed that I would probably be flamed. Well, since I am relatively new to this board, I guess I did not really know just what a flame was. I found out with the post that was right after mine.

As I said in my last post on this board, I did not ever tell anybody that they had to believe the way I do. Some people have asked me questions that I do not know the answer to. Rather than make up something, I just stayed silent. And in my last post, I said the things that I said because I felt that I was getting absolutely nowhere. I felt ridiculed, just because I believe a certain way. And rather than say something that I wouldn’t normally say, I decided to quit posting on that thread.

One person on this board has a “signature” that says something like “If you don’t want an answer, don’t ask the question”. That is exactly how I feel, because if it is a thread that I am interested in, and I know ANYTHING about it, I will put in my 2 cents worth. And if my 2 cents worth doesn’t happen to jive with someone elses beliefs, well so be it. If
everybody believed the same, or everybody thought the same, or everybody all had the same opinions on everything, we would all be robots and there would be absolutely NO reason for this board or any other one like it.

Your thoughts, please. And thankyou.

P.S. If I in any way offended ANYBODY, I am truly sorry. And if I am wrong about anything, I will admit it if I believe what I said was wrong, after it is pointed out to me.

2

Amen.

3

my85car wrote:

Because 9 times out of 10, at least one of these posts are reiterations of: “I’m telling you heathens this to save your sorry asses from an eternity in Hell!”

4

Exactly. my85car, I think you’ll find if you re-read the threads in question that the things Christians get flamed for are statements like “this is true, because the Bible says so, and that’s just the way it is because the Bible is the Word of God.” People who do not believe the Bible is the Word of God, or who do not think that everything the Bible says is true (or at least, not true according to your interpretation), consider (rightly) that they are being “belittled” or “put down” or “ridiculed” by such statements, and they come back fighting.

Do you get it? Nobody should criticize you for believing whatever you want about the Bible or the Lord (unless, of course, you set out your beliefs as topics for debate, and then it’s open season). But when you assert that your belief is true—not just “I believe that this is the way it is” but “this is the way it is”—then you are insulting the beliefs of people who believe differently from you, and they are apt to insult you right back. It is simply not observing the decencies of debate in a forum like this to post an assertion that boils down to “I am right and you are wrong”—unless you can back up that assertion with proof from a source that all the disputants consider authoritative.

I hope that helps. Personally, I’m favorably impressed with your remark that you don’t expect or want everybody to believe all the same things, and I hope you will stick around to become one of our beloved “village Christians” :slight_smile: like Polycarp or tomndebb~ or Bob Cos or RTFirefly or any one of a host of others. And if you really show courtesy and respect for the beliefs of those who disagree with you, and they respond by dissing yours, call me and I’ll give 'em the Official Atheist Dope Slap. :wink:

Kimstu

5

Just a suggestion, my85car, but when someone asks you a question to which you don’t know the answer, just reply that you don’t know. Ignoring a question tends to irk people, and most of the time, no one will jump down your throat if you say “Good question, but I don’t know.”

6

A good question, my85car.

Why don’t you ask the Christians who are here to learn instead of proselytize? The ones who are here to fight ingnorance instead of witness? The ones who actually contribute something to the community beyond chalking up the “I went among the heathens today” gold star for unsolicited, unresearched, and unfounded evangelism? For that matter, how about asking the ones who truly practice their faith by works and spirituality instead of platitude and false humility?

:rolleyes:

How much patience would folks over at, say, the Left Behind Message Board (as a purely random example) have if I went over there, proselytized my faith, refused to entertain any ideas that I might be mistaken, misunderstanding, or just plain wrong, then asked why everyone was ridiculing me? What would happen if I asked “Why is it that when a religious thread is posted, anybody that posts their beliefs as a follower of the Invisible Pink Unicorn and speaks about Her, they get ridiculed and put down?”

Oh, sorry, I already know that answer to that one.

7

I do have to admit that Christian bashing threads do seem to be popular. You don’t see too many about “Hinduism is hypocritical” or “Buddha wasn’t really born in xxxB.C.” I do agree that some of the evangelists probably give the more reasonable Christian folk a bad name, but even with that aside, it is my reflection that Christianity does seem to be a big target.

Why that is I am not sure.

8

Avalongod, in the US as well as in most of the rest of the western hemisphere, it’s far and away the biggest* target.

I guarantee you, if we had any people showing up and telling us that the Upanishads are the inerrant and only Word of God(s) and that we are all going to suffer eternally if we don’t believe in the Holy Might of Brahma, we’d jump on their (lack of) logic as well.

9

andros:

you are right of course, although aside from the evangelical efforts of some Christians, I have another hypothesis for why Christian bashing may be so popular. It’s not exactly my finest work, so don’t get all lathery. Anyway, seems logical to me to suggest that many atheists/agnostics/etc. pick on Christianity because they likely (though not necessarily always) were raised somewhere in the quasi-Christian tradition here in the US, and it is this religion with which they have become disillusioned. Thus they subsequently rail against the religion that they abandoned as this serves to confirm in their own minds the correctness of their choice.

I suspect if you head to any other religion, you will find SOME bunch that will be happy to proselytize to you.

10

I think you’re right, although I might take exception to the “abandoning Christianity” line.

:smiley:

11

Andros:

You can rest assured, I meant that only in a utilitarian sense, not a judgemental one. Not a Christian myself.

12

Just a thought, but I wonder if “Christian bashing” is popular because of some “T.V. Preachers”. I won’t mention any names, but there was one who went to prison for a few years for bilking his flock. Then there was another one that “strayed” in his marriage, not once, but twice. You all know who they are.

I believe that there are 10 good ones for every bad one, but people tend to remember the bad things they did. Their message wasn’t bad, but people remember what they did.

Another reason for people being athiests, agnostics may be right in line with what happened to me when I was a kid. From the time I was in the first grade to the year I graduated High School, I was forced to take piano lessons. To this day, I do not like to play the piano, because I was forced to do something that I did not care to do. It may be the same with people that were forced to go to church. I don’t know. Just a thought. But it kind of fits.

13

Good points both, MyCar!

There is a concept in psychology called the “Availability heuristic” which suggests that we are more likely to remember things that are odd…but based on the fact that we can remember them, we are likely to think that they are common.

For instance, you might be able to recall a number of spectacular plane crashes, but few automobile accidents, thus someone might conclude that air travel is inherintly less safe than auto travel, though this is not true.

Perhaps some of this comes to play in this religious situation. For instance, we can all remember the failed TV evangelists, and we all probably find the evangelists that come to this board striking as well. As we remember them really well, but forget those Christians who remain fairly quiet, we think all Christians are hypocritical and obnoxious, though this is not so.

14

Christians get bashed a lot because SOME of them are fanatical and draw lots of negative attention to themselves. Some of them are just nuts, and those are the ones that atheists like myself focus our arguments on. They make perfect examples to back up my opinions.

For example:

Pro-Lifers that murder doctors

Televangelists

People who speak in tongues and pretend that it’s not all an act
Of course, christianity isn’t the only religion to have its share of wackos. Islam has been given a bad reputation by all the suicide bombers and fanatical terrorists of recent years. At least you never hear about Rabbi suicide bombers, or Buddhist terrorists. If things like that were on the news all the time, then Jews and Buddhists would get bashed too.

15

You want to learn how to be a Christian on this board, post and not be flamed?

Go talk to Polycarp. Or Libertarian. Or any of the many, many other Christians who are well-respected members of this board. Perhaps they could give you some tips.

Esprix

16

My suggestion is that you simply don’t bring it up. There are many sites on the internet where you can go to privately explore the tenents of your faith. Trying to do so here will prove to be an effort in frustration and futility. There are people here as Avalon said that are similar to the way some let’s say… non-smokers behave…They protest too much. Perhaps their values are rooted in the Christian religion but they have become dissolutioned with the practice and must constantly affirm their stance. Often they are quite rude and just as zealous as they claim many Christians to be. There is also the odd poster or two that perhaps is simply working with an enflated ego. They cannot resist using this subject as a means to show their intellectual superiority. Because in their mind any idea that cannot be proved scientifically is not valid. Whatever the reason, I learned right away that Christians are a favorite target for ridicule on this board. And I’ve seen way to many of them become offended and come back for more. Just leave the subject alone, unless you like being insulted. It would take you years of study in order to even begin to argue effectively with many of these people. Years of studing more than just your Bible.

Needs2know

17

Aside from the glaring logical error that going to church has absolutely nothing to do with believing in gods . . .

I am an atheist. I can remember being in church maybe 5 times before the age of 15, and at least 2 of those were weddings. My family simply didn’t go. I went, on my own, from about age 15 to 21. After that is when I really realized that I didn’t believe in gods at all. So, no, it doesn’t kind of fit at all. Certainly not in my situation.

18

I must disagree. I enjoy reading the religious debates, even if I don’t post very often. I think better suggestions would be to:

a) Avoid proselytizing. Agnostics seem to be much more open to religious debate than they are to one-sided “witnessing”.

b) Remember the name of this forum. People come here expecting to debate. If someone starts a thread with no other purpose than to assert his Christianity, then someone is going to show up to debate it (which will lead to a bit of unpleasantness since the OP never considered that someone might do that). If, however, he starts with an argument like “I believe the bible was inspired because it has survived so many years with relatively little deviance and…”, then it’s much more likely to evolve into a friendly debate.

c) Where possible, try to use the other side’s standard of evidence, or explain why it is unreasonable. If a Christian is talking to a bunch of agnostics, she can’t back up her arguments with the bible. Rather she has to provide thought-provoking real-world evidence, or explain why such evidence is unnecessary. Agnostics should also try to acknowledge the possibility of true faith rather than insisting that it doesn’t exist, and should make an effort to counter bible arguments with bible arguments, or argue the validity of the bible itself, but not ridicule the believer for the act of believing. Better it be a debate about standards of evidence than a shouting fest with no prayer of accomplishing anything.

19

Meara:

I think what Needs2Know was trying to say (and forgive me if I am wrong) is don’t bring up religious debates if you will be offended by someone proselytizing to you, from either the religious or atheist camps. Unfortunately a good deal of hyperbole and rationalization does occur on both sides, and you have to “not mind” being essentially being told you are wrong if you disagree with some people.

I do like your suggestions Meara, but as we know, not everyone is gonna adhere to them.

:slight_smile:

20

I’ve belonged to a couple of UU congregations over the past few years. One (not the only) thing that bugged me about my previous church was the amount of time spent Christian bashing. (With Wheaton practically next door, it’s a pretty obvious target.) I wished more time was spent in examining what our church stood for, rather than repeatedly belittling what we do not believe in. The extremes make easy targets, but provide limited assistance in tweaking your value system.

But don’t go moaning about Christians being some threatened class in America today. What percentage of Americans believe in a supreme being? Now don’t cry too loudly when I punch you in the kneecap.

I didn’t think you were flamed much in those other threads, my85car. See, as an atheist, I’m used to people not agreeing with me. A lot of my interest in discussing religion is based in confusion - my beliefs make so much sense to me, I just can’t fathom why so many folk believe otherwise. Sound familiar? And has been stated eloquently above, if I don’t accept the Bible as unerring truth, I cannot defer to any argument using that as its sole basis.

My best buddy at work is a devout Christian who attends a Methodist church. We enjoy discussing at length the reasons for our beliefs, the value and limitations of the bible, what we get out of church, etc. When I thought I had gone a little too far the other day he said, “No prob. My warning system doesn’t even go on alert as long as you stop short of using the work ‘mindfuck’ to describe my faith.” I treasure having such a friend. I can only hold my beliefs strongly if I am able to periodically subject them to intense examination.

In my experience, the vast majority of true believers (note I didn’t say Christians) are unwilling to engage in open discussions about their faith. Don’t try to convert me, and don’t get personally offended too quickly, and we both might learn something and enjoy the process.