A small minority who blaspheme a great religion...

Great Debates
1

As we all know, the propaganda war has been in effect for weeks now. This is a war on terrorism, not Islam. We are fighting the Taliban, not the people of Afghaninstan. And, by far the most prevalent has been the repeated assertion that the terrorists belong to a small minority of Islam, who blaspheme their own religion, aren’t true Muslims, etc.

It’s never been specified exactly what this “small minority” means.
Only a small minority support terrorism?
Only a small minority would actually commit terrorism?
Only a small minority support Bin Laden?

But regardless, the implications are clear: the terrorists are to Islam what abortion doctor shooters, Klansmen, and Timothy McVeigh are to Christianity.

Bullshit.

I’ve suspected this from day one, but until now had nothing but anecdotal evidence to support my views. Some protests here, some newspaper editorials from Islamic countries there, but nothing that could establish firmly that terrorist supporters were anything but a small minority. But here it is:

According to a Gallup Poll survey commissioned by Newsweek magazine, 83 percent of the Pakistanis surveyed sympathize with the Taliban, while a narrow majority — 51 percent — voiced agreement with Musharraf’s policy of cooperation with the United States.
And almost half of those polled, 48 percent, said they believed Israel was responsible for the Sept. 11 attack on the United States — while only 12 percent viewed bin Laden as responsible.

That’s right: five out of six Pakistanis support the Taliban, and half of them think that the Israelis were responsible for the terrorist attacks.

Pakistan is a nation of approximately 140 million Muslims, representing about one eighth of the world total. Of those, somewhere between 70 and 120 million are “anti-U.S.,” depending on how we define that concept. Toss in Iran and Iraq–two nations which are vehemently anti-American and pro-terrorism–and you have another 80 million people who hate us.

Unfortunately, I don’t have opinion polls for other Muslim countries, but the anecdotal evidence–violent, deadly riots in Nigeria, Indonesia, etc.; suicide bombers in Palestine; anti-U.S. newspaper editorials throughout the Muslim world; murderous Muslim separatists threatening to execute more American hostages in the Philippines–indicates the anti-American, push-the-Jews-into-the-sea, jihad-against-everything-non-Muslim attitude is not some small, isolated version of Islam, held by only a handful of demented individuals. Rather, it is a fairly common belief in the Islamic world. No, it is not universal, but it is not as rare as our government is trying to tell us.

So, who disagrees? Who wants to defend the position that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are primarily peaceful people who don’t hate the U.S., don’t want to drive the Jews into the sea, and decry the terrorist attacks and want justice for the perpetrators?

(Note that I am only concerned about the beliefs of actual Muslims, not the teachings of Muhammad or verses in the Qur’an. I realize that there are a bunch of verses condemning violence in the Qur’an. I’m not arguing that Islam is a violent religion per se, only that most people who happen to be Muslims aren’t the saints we’re making them out to be.)

2

You are aware there are a billion-plus Muslims worldwide, no? So, you are looking at only 7 to 12 percent. I’d consider that a small minority.

3

By no means am I trying to feed some anti-muslim hysteria, but the number of Muslims opposing U.S. action in Pakistan seems to be growing, and now Muslims in some other nations are starting to get roused.

Just wanted to point out that it may be more than 7 to 12 percent. Gonna dig around and see what else I can find.

4

The current column (October 2001) on the Happy Heretic website basically agrees with the OP, though not for the same reasons.

5

<grunt> I hate to say it, and by no means do I support all of Opus1’s commments, but the level of Anti-American sentiment does seem to be rising in a lot of different places. Some places (like Palestine) had it before, but the current strikes may be bringing things to a boil. So in other words, while I think Opus1 may be being overly dramatic and overstating the issue, American image is starting to hurt pretty bad in some countries (or at least it’s hurting worse than before).

However in all fairness IMPO that in the West at least the majority of Muslims seem to support the U.S. Not to mention there are a few Muslim countries that don’t have overtly Anti-American and Israeli policies; Morocco for example has tried in the past to help bring a peaceful resolution to the Palestine/Israel dispute. And the Jordanians have a peace treaty with Israel, and cooperate with them on tourist issues; you gotta admit it’d be kind of difficult to that if your people were thirsting for Jewish blood.

[Opus1] as you admit there have been few opinion polls released from other Muslim nations, not to mention nobody’s asked all the Muslims living in “non-Muslim” nations. I think it’s a little early to be saying that the statement “Terrorists are to Islam what abortion doctors are to Christianity” is untrue. And honestly, after looking around, it seems the Anti-American view is most commonly voiced in countries where there is a high deal of censorship. I mean, if the U.S. is so anti-Muslim why did we go into Kosovo and liberate Kuwait? I wonder if the people in Pakistan are aware of this.

6

It’s also worth pointing out that this is not a religious dispute, but a political one. The power-hungry manipulators at the top are using the religious association – a more-or-less cosmetic similarity, really, given the theological differences between the various groups – to build sympathy and support for what are, in reality, purely political objectives. You will note, for example, that Saddam Hussein gassed his own Muslims, a fact that gets glossed over too often.

So instead of looking at this as “When Islam Attacks! (next on Fox),” remember that most third and fourth world countries have problems with violent extremists. (Many first and second world countries do, too.) Terrorist != Muslim. Look at Peru, Northern Ireland, Oklahoma City, etc., etc. And in addition, note that, for whatever reason (a separate debate), the majority of mostly-Muslim nations are third-world countries struggling with embattled economies, oppressed citizenry, and other problems.

Basically, the people who perceive themselves as lacking power will attack those who they perceive are hoarding it, or who they believe are preventing them from acquiring it. Don’t forget, Osama bin Laden’s group doesn’t just hate the West; they make threatening noises about “moderate” Muslim nations like Jordan and Malaysia as well.

It’s all about power. The so-called religious struggle is merely a convenient umbrella for the political manipulators. Saddam Hussein doesn’t want to give up his palaces and limousines, so he tells his starving population, “Man, I’d sure love to improve your lives, but the U.S. won’t lift its boot from our necks. Down with America!”

And before you chuckle at this empty rhetoric, and wonder how stupid the citizenry has to be to believe it, reflect for a moment on its remarkable similarities to the self-serving nonsense spewed by Pat Buchanan and his ilk, and how popular Buchanan is with fringe groups in the U.S.

7

I agree with the OP. Frankly I’m getting sick of people saying “oh these terrorists are just a teeny little minority and they don’t represent Islam, they just pervert it yadda yadda.” It’s politically correct bs.

It is not a “small minority” - the only “minority” is the peaceful group of Muslims living in America who don’t support the violence (either because they’ve been liberalized due to living in the West, or because they are in harm’s way living here in the US).

Guess what – these terrorists DO represent Islam. Islam is their life. I will take Osama bin Laden’s word as to what Islam means over some liberal american muslim who doesn’t spend 9/10th of his/her life praying and reading the Koran.

I realize it is politically correct to say that Osama and the terrorists are not real muslims, they don’t understand islam, etc. Frankly, I think the only reason people say that is because they are afraid of Muslims and don’t want to offend them for fear of their lives.

UncleBeer: Pakistan is a moderate Arab country. If 83% of Pakistanis support the taliban/bin laden, then I guarantee you 99.9999% of Iraqis and Afghanis support him.

If the Koran “says” something to the contrary it is irrelevent. Islam is what the majority of Muslims believe it is (that goes for every religion).

Do any “Islam is peaceful” people want to put some money on whether or not all these anthrax letters were sent by Muslims? Somehow I doubt it.

8

How many people were polled, in what region of Pakistan was this poll conducted (the North, close to the Afghan border, is certainly strongly pro-Taliban), who owns Newsweek, how were the questions phrased ? yada, yada, yada…
Nine out of ten cats prefer…

In times like this you few poll without already knowing the answers, IM-Cynical-O.

9

Feel free to ignore ‘you’ in the last passage of the above post.

10

Pakistan is not a moderate Arab country. Pakistan is not a conservative Arab country. Pakistan is not an extremist Arab country. Pakistan is not a bleeding-heart liberal Arab country.

Pakistan is not an Arab country.

11

The OP is right of course.

Its a load of hogwash to make believe that “this is not Islam”

Well guess what, for at least a few million arabs it is.

Here is a better example.

You say that Islam is agaianst suicide terrorist attacks for political goals?

Find me one mainstream Islamic organization which condemned suicide terror prior to Sep. 11. Remember that at that time it was mostly Jews who were being targeted.

Here is another easy job. Find the Imams and organizations which defended suicide terror attacks…

Here is a great article about this:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/26/muslims/index.html

Go to the state department list of terrorist organizations and give me the percentage of how many are Islamic (somewhere between 80-90 percent). Lets find the countries who support terror (Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, etc…etc…)

I feel bad for all 12 and a half Islamic folks who disagree with these scum, but for the meanwhile most Americans (or perhaps it is limited to politicians and the media) wish to keep their heads in the sand in a fit of reflexive, self-destructive political correctness.

12

While hoping like Hell that the OP is generally wrong, I feel it is important to point out that the US is dangerously close to getting in bed with another potentially terrorist nation. Pakistan is where the “Islamic Schools” are located that helped to breed up the Taleban in the first place. Pakistan is also viewed very dimly by India for their terrorist tactics in Kashmir. The remote possibility of Pakistan being taken over in a Taleban coup needs to be addressed now and not later.

Please give just a few moments thought to the implications of Taleban extremists having access to nuclear weapons.

If that doesn’t make your blood run ice cold, I don’t know what will.

I have an extremely difficult time perceiving Pakistan as our friend. They, like so many other “moderate” Muslim nations have their back to a political wall and are making the most expedient decisions. None of these should be interpreted as any sort of deep or abiding support for the US and its aims in the region.

13

I hope everyone here takes the time to read this article. You just might be surprised. This is not to say that it proves the point of the OP, but it is nonetheless, quite disturbing.

Thank you, TQMshirt.

14

I guess it depends on what you mean by “Arab.” Pakistan, officially the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, is 97% Muslim. That’s “Arab” enough for me.

Dark-skinned, Islamic people who hate the US and Israel are my pragmatic definition of “Arab.”

15

Well Kalt your “pragmatic defination” of Arabs is wrong. Your definition includes Italian, Baltic, Asian, and other Islamic people who are definatly not Arabic

16

I think you are arguing semantics here. But, if you would like to explain what an arab is, and why Pakistan is not an arab country, my ears are wide open.

17

Kalt, Arabs are folks who come from Saudi Arabia. Muslims are people from all over the world–places like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Sommalia–who practice the religion of Islam. There are a lot of Saudi Arabians who are Muslim, but not every Muslim is a Saudi Arabian or Arab. Not all Muslims have dark skin and hair. Some have blond hair and blue eyes and light skin. Get it.

As far as the salon article that TQMshirt linked.

"Before then, in 1991, speaking to the Islamic Association of North Texas, Wahaj called Operation Desert Storm “one of the most diabolical plots ever in the annals of history,” and that the war was “part of a larger plan, to destroy the greatest challenge to the Western world, and that’s Islam.” Just as the USSR fell, so too will the U.S., Wahaj said, “unless America changes its course from the new world order and accepts the Islamic agenda.”

Well, I’m confused. Just what exactly is this “new world order,” and what the hell is this “Islamic agenda” that Wahaj is talking about? And again, for all of these Muslim organizations who are cited in this article, where are the female imams? All of the ones referred to are male. Can anyone cite to me any prominent female Muslim imams and just what their position is on terrorist groups?

As far as Pakistan and its 83% sympathy rate siding with the Taliban, I heard on the Jim Lehrer News Hour http://www.pbs.org tonight that one of the reasons they may sympathize with the Taliban is because they have a vested interest in maintaining good relations with Afghanistan because they share cultural ties with the Pashtuns there. Also they want to secure Afghanistan so that India doesn’t get its hands on it. I also think it’s because they really have no clue of the atrocities the Taliban have committed in the name of Islam. But their sympathizing with the Taliban and ObL does frighten me.

18

Although you didn’t have a valid point to begin with, if you had, this bigoted & asinine comment of yours would’ve doomed that point to oblivion.

And Kalt: Arabs are from, get this, the Arabian Peninsula. Fascinating, hey? Pakistan is not on the Arabian Peninsula and the Arab race* did not take over all of the local ethnic groups in Pakistan. What they did do, is convert people all over India (well, some people) back when Pakistan was part of India.

That’s like saying that Black Christians in Africa are European Caucasian just because they’re Christians.

19

Well m-w.com defines Arab as

I figured there’s still room there for Pakistan to be Arabic, so I looked up their official language.
It’s Hindi
So I looked up exactly where Arabia is. According to m-w.com

Of course, you could still be right, so I looked up Muslin and Islam to see if it mentions Arabia/Arabs.

The word Islam is of Arabic origin, but a lot of English words are Germanic in origin, that doesn’t make us Germans. Some words in the Christian church is Latin in origin, that doesn’t make us all Romans.

20

Oops, I pressed submit too fast. At http://www.pbs.org look at the “Powell in Pakistan” report.